Electricity and three way switches

tuna55 wrote: Sorry guys: 24v was in the kitchen. 96 was in the den The dimmer is on the den light, not the fan.

If you turn off the circuit breaker in one room does the voltage go back to normal in the other room?

I've got several three way dimmers in my project house hell. They're one of the few things that haven't given me trouble.

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Lutron-Toggler-150-Watt-Single-Pole-3-Way-CFL-LED-Dimmer-White-TGCL-153PH-WH/202746671

That. But still they need to be wired up right to work!

Swapped and no difference.

So the dimmer is out of the circuit now

I swapped out the standalone three way (maybe) switch and put it the old dimmer three way and now things are funkier. So now the light works but the fan sounds like badness when I try and turn it on. Apparently the fan is also trying to get in on the three way circuit.

If there is voltage with the switch off, it can be back feed from another circuit, devices wired in series or bad insulation inside the switch bleeding voltage.

I troubleshot an old service that had 80 volts everywhere dispute all the fuses being pulled. The bakelight in the old fuse box was bad. I assume that is your kitchen problem with your switch. The living room sounds like a neutral problem on the circuit. Is the fan fed from a different circuit?

Is there any antiquated control for running a fan/light combo with a transformer? That might explain the weird voltages but I admit my logic seems like a stretch. Its just 24v and 48v are easy to do with a small transformer hidden somewhere. Think about a door bell xfrm.

I just removed the other three way switch. They are just hanging.

Trying to make the fan and the light work with their respective switch is difficult

The crunchy fan is what happens when you run a dimmer to reduce voltage. So now you know you somehow have reduced voltage at the fan which is.....a data point?
I'd be inclined to take every box back to bare wires identify live, neutral, ground, and the extra for the three way, and then start over with the wiring diagram.

Ok got one switch happy. Now the second three way.

All legs are showing 120v. I must have done something wrong in the main box.

Hire an electrician. Wiring isn't a hobby.

This is where I left off. I just have no switch on the other box. I am not sure where the extra weird voltages come from, but I am not too concerned because they may just be floating around. Those voltages don't change even if the kitchen breaker is off, or the switches are off. I am guessing they are the lines which go to the three way switch, but not sure yet.

Mazdax605 wrote: Hire an electrician. Wiring isn't a hobby.

$$$$$

I would remove all switches and lights (in one room). Turn breaker on and find the hot wire.

Then tie it to other conductors one at a time to sort out what wire goes where.

Note that a wire in one switch or ceiling j-box may go to another room.. So be Mindful of what else shuts off when you "unwire".

That and lots of cell phone camera photos along the way.

(Still glad you didn't buy this place and keep another one. You may be suffering from all the surprise repairs, but you're not financially ruined.)

OHSCrifle wrote: I would remove all switches and lights (in one room). Turn breaker on and find the hot wire. Then tie it to other conductors one at a time to sort out what wire goes where. Note that a wire in one switch or ceiling j-box may go to another room.. So be Mindful of what else shuts off when you "unwire". That and lots of cell phone camera photos along the way. (Still glad you didn't buy this place and keep another one. You may be suffering from all the surprise repairs, but you're not financially ruined.)

So I sort of did that. I figured out hot, and where the power is coming from.

It helps that this is part of the "cut a hole in the wall" project, so I can see where the cables are headed.

I don't really understand the weird voltages, but I believe these may be the travelers.

I'll pull the base of the fan off today to see if anything looks odd there.

Of note is that neither bare wire was connected to either switch to begin with. In the main box they were all twisted together, but none to the actual switches. Now they are, it did not make a difference.

Thanks for reminding me how bad it would be to fight these issues in two houses! That turned out to be a good call.

Apparently turning either the light or the fan on or off makes the TV turn off then back on again.

"Bare wire"... You mean ground? They are often not connected to the switch.

You said you have 1 switch happy- I disagree.

If all thre legs in the other box are hot, the problem is in the first box. You've got the switch functioning as a double pole, not a 3 way.

Nothing particularly useful to add, just read this thread and reminded of the time I refurbished a big 80's McMansion. Replacing the questionably wired 4 way switch "system" took every scrap of patience I had, a couple of tingly fingers, and a strong desire to hang the original "electrician" with his own romex.

Good luck!

SVreX wrote: You said you have 1 switch happy- I disagree. If all thre legs in the other box are hot, the problem is in the first box. You've got the switch functioning as a double pole, not a 3 way.

That was the case before I disconnected the white and red, now they have some small voltage that's not 120. It doesn't feel like real voltage, though. I touched it. I mean, I had to.

Your diagram appears to be showing 2 legs in each switchbox, not 3.

I'm pretty sure your problem is in the ceiling. The black (hot) is tied to both switches. That's incorrect.

The path for the hot should be:

• Start at switch 1. Even if it starts at the ceiling, it re-routes directly to only switch 1.

• The hot passes through a traveler back to switch 2. It may go through the fixture, but it does not connect.

• From switch 2, the hot passes BACK to switch 1. Again, it might pass through the fixture without connecting.

• From switch 1, the hot finally returns to the fixture.

There is actually no neutral in switch legs. They are all hot. I am assuming if you are measuring 120V, you are measuring it to ground, not neutral.

The neutral leg from the source goes DIRECTLY to the fixture. Not to any switches. If the neutral from the fixture is tied to a switch, you don't have travelers.

All the mess of 3 way switches is to route the hot leg, not the neutral.

In reply to SVreX:

Nice clear explanation!

SVreX wrote: Your diagram appears to be showing 2 legs in each switchbox, not 3. I'm pretty sure your problem is in the ceiling. The black (hot) is tied to both switches. That's incorrect. The path for the hot should be: - Start at switch 1. Even if it starts at the ceiling, it re-routes directly to only switch 1. - The hot passes through a traveler back to switch 2. It may go through the fixture, but it does not connect. - From switch 2, the hot passes BACK to switch 1. Again, it might pass through the fixture without connecting. - From switch 1, the hot finally returns to the fixture. There is actually no neutral in switch legs. They are all hot. I am assuming if you are measuring 120V, you are measuring it to ground, not neutral. The neutral leg from the source goes DIRECTLY to the fixture. Not to any switches. If the neutral from the fixture is tied to a switch, you don't have travelers. All the mess of 3 way switches is to route the hot leg, not the neutral.

To the ceiling it is then!

Thanks for the help. I'll let you know what happens tonight.

dculberson wrote: In reply to SVreX: Nice clear explanation!

Thanks. I'm so polished at speaking in a convoluted manner that it takes a lot of effort to try to describe things like that. I think I need a rest.

In reply to tuna55:

The exception to my explanation is if the source begins at a switch instead of the fixture. THEN it is possible to read 120V at a switch.

I am assuming your diagram showing the source at the fixture is correct.

The other time 120V could be at a switch is if it is used as a junction.