This could have been written in the 70s about how smog regulations were going to kill all performance cars.
Unfortunately, your mind will not be changed. It's clear in the second sentence where you claim that the only reason people drive EVs is to signal virtue. You'll have to get past that before you can have an intelligent conversation with anyone.
I feel that you can't proclaim that EVs are being shoved down our throat due to CAFE standards right after admitting that they provide greater acceleration than anything else on the market.
As for natural gas, ask those in the Northeast to use it as home heating fuel, what their monthly tab runs and then imagine what that would be if a third of the US vehicle fleet operated on it. Wind is a more viable option to power millions of motor vehicles, and I say that realizing that neither are.
Vehicle dynamics have changed. 225 width tires are now skinny and and 3500lb curb weight is now considered fairly lightweight. Gone are the days of engaging lightweight chuckable cars. However there is more mechanical grip than there has ever been before and greater potential acceleration than there is ever been before. You just have to discover the package that fits your needs and is most enjoyable to you as a consumer. Otherwise you're the bitter MG owner complaining about new cars in 1991 while the Miata sits on a dealership showroom floor.
Also, upon checking your list outside of the Corolla, Civic and Sentra, nearly everything on that list is an SUV, CUV or Truck. So it sure as hell isn't EVs that is crippling the automotive scene. If you want I'll dig up the numbers on the percentage of Sentras that are sold with CVT transmissions, hint it's over 84% and you can respond in turn by enlightening me how a CVT Sentra somehow continues the perpetuity of the automotive enthusiast sub culture.
Ok boomer
I think the media always focuses on what's new! New sells newsprint. How many new corvettes actually sell compared to Camrys? Not very many but it's hard to sell a magazine or even get views of a web article about the lowly but bullet proof Toyota.
While I can't afford a new vette, hellcat , or even new hot hatch there's arguably never been a time when an enthusiast has been able to buy a more capable vehicle right off the lot.
You're complaining about enthusiast car culture and talking about new cars.
There's a disconnect here.
It's worth noting that while the Model Y might be the 19th best selling vehicle in the US (not 19 out of 25, there are several hundred vehicles on the full list), the Model 3 is the best selling vehicle in Europe. I'm not sure when an imported car last topped that list! I find it pretty incredible.
You can be an enthusiast and drive a new EV. Or an old muscle car that belches noise and fumes. Or something small and light and nimble and slow. It's all allowed.
Note that other than the recent spike that comes from very obvious and explainable factors, the price of gasoline is basically the same it has been for over 40 years.
e-Fuel is still in the lab while EVs are in the showroom, and e-Fuel is vastly less efficient (need to gather/spend energy to synthesize and/or refine fuels and then transport them, and then burn them in cars that turn most of that fuel into waste heat), and CNG isn't that clean when methane emissions are taken into account, so that's why EVs are getting all the attention over those two.
Fuel prices are actually a lot cheaper than they would be if they weren't being effectively subsidized by military spending - conservative estimates put the effective subsidy from this in the US at 25c/gal. They're also cheaper than they should be/have been due to externalities involved, like the whole need to switch to renewable energy and run atmospheric carbon sequestration that we'll now have to pay for, that wasn't priced into the fossil fuels including gas which caused it.
Another factor is reliability - ICE drivetrains need a metric ton of it compared to EVs that just need their pack swapped (and maybe some electronics upgraded with it) every decade or two.
I'll miss the sound and shifting of ICEs but I'll remind myself of all the trouble they caused me personally as well as to the environment when that happens. The massive traction improvement of individual wheel-motors and gut-wrenching acceleration may help make up for it.
I think EVs are basically a separate issue from anything bad happening to enthusiast car culture - if any new development poses any threat to enthusiast culture it may be autonomous cars, at least that could actually make a person less likely to come into contact with a human-drivable car.
The exact same thing has been said about:
Hybrids
ABS
Stability control
Independent rear suspension in muscle cars
Electronic engine controls
OBD
Fuel injection
Radial tires
Paddle shift gearboxes
Miatas
And more. And that's just in my time doing this.
We'll be fine.
BTW YoursTruly, in terms of automotive journalism I think you'd like Matt Posky at TTAC. He shows up to work to do two things, chew bubblegum and figuratively burn effigies of vehicle electrification at every opportunity, and he always seems to forget his bubblegum at home...
While the OP is a little heavy handed with his points, a lot of these changes he's complaining about have been "pushed" onto a reluctant market instead of being "pulled" into an expectant market.
Keith Tanner said:This could have been written in the 70s about how smog regulations were going to kill all performance cars.
Unfortunately, your mind will not be changed. It's clear in the second sentence where you claim that the only reason people drive EVs is to signal virtue. You'll have to get past that before you can have an intelligent conversation with anyone.
That's what I was going to say, too.
Which is to say, yea, I'm not going to get into this again. You can figure out the hobby (not you Keith, the OP).
In reply to JG Pasterjak :
Im a firm believer its all been downhill since the electric starter.
I couldn't love GRM the magazine or the website more, and believe me, I don't like to be the P.C. police or anything or the guy who has a problem with everything thing, but I do have a problem with this... I find it a bit offensive that you use terms like “enthusiast" and "culture" for your little hobby or whatever in the discussions. I myself am not an electric vehicle, but I feel sensitivity for things that are, as I am a student living among them, and my BMW is hooked up to an EVSE in the parking lot. This "Culture" thing you speak of, although I'm pretty sure is not even a real trait, is obviously meant to resemble the words used to describe cars with internal combustion engines, and it appears that you are using it on this board in a joking sense which, as I view it, makes light of cars that run on electricity.
I'm most surprised that there are still 5 sedans on the list of 25.
They tell me sedans are dead but 20% of the list is sedan
The media doesn't care about the guys building 20 year old Miatas in their driveways for autocross. The media doesn't care about the guys taking their 40 year old MGs out on a Sunday drive. The media doesn't care about the guys restoring old Mustangs and Camaros in their garage. They are all about who is spending the most money and who they can sell to. What's flashy and who's grabbing attention.
There is an entire world out there that is not being covered by the media.
YoursTruly said:Keith Tanner said:This could have been written in the 70s about how smog regulations were going to kill all performance cars.
Unfortunately, your mind will not be changed. It's clear in the second sentence where you claim that the only reason people drive EVs is to signal virtue. You'll have to get past that before you can have an intelligent conversation with anyone.
This is a very good point, and for a time, the smog regulations absolutely did kill performance cars. I am very pleased to see that we got past it and improved emissions along with performance. I genuinely hope that we are in the growing-pain era of EV's. Current high performance hybrids are awesome machines and I would prefer we go that way.
I am sorry that you feel I cannot be reasoned with based on something I learned from actual friends of mine who really bought Teslas to replace their SUV. The conversation basically boiled down to the following points: No I don't recycle. No I won't be getting rid of the grass I waste water on and cut with an uncatalyzed riding mower. Yes I realize that producing a new car is very bad for the environment when compared to driving the one I have. No I am not saving money in fuel costs by purchasing an EV to replace my late model SUV for my 6 mile commute. Yes it does make me feel good that my car produces zero emissions at the point of driving it.
I am happy that they bought something they wanted (since so few in this world have that luxury), and perhaps I was being too general with my statement about virtue signaling, but I can't help but think that at some point is it just for creating the appearance of environmentalism?
Funny, when I read the points your friends make, other than the fake zero emissions, it seems that they are getting the EV it's because they think it's a better vehicle than the SUV. Especially for them.
So how does one extrapolate that to the "end of the car enthusiast"? I certainly don't see the connection.
Car culture will only be destroyed when the operator-actuated accelerator pedal is no longer a part of the vehicle.and there is no actual seating position designated for the "driver" . As long as the driver's skill and ego are involved in arriving at a destination, there will be a car culture.
YoursTruly said:In reply to Crxpilot :
I have been very heavy handed with this. I agree with your point that the market will pull EVs in as people and the infrastructure is ready. I will be adding a footnote to my post, without changing the original, backing off a bit.
My main concern is the creation and push of so-called enthusiast EVs when I don't see a lot of actual enthusiasts wanting them.
That last line, replace EV with SUV, and you can make the same conclusion. Yet SUV's didn't kill the enthusiast.
I do have a serious, admittedly unrelated e-fuel question, that I'll ask here, because it's not too crazy with regards to signal to noise.
But why isn't the plan to utilize E-fuel with E85? Or at least E60? I know that ethanol really isn't stellar unless you're running high compression or forced induction, but the reality is is that everything that isn't EV is going to be forced induction or higher compression for emissions sooner rather than later. And I'm well aware that corn is absolutely terrible for ethanol production and that it absorbs water and isn't stable long term. But sugar cane grows quickly and is replenishable.
I feel that it is much easier to set up and establish a charging infrastructure than it is and E-fuel and E85 infrastructure and production platforms, but I wouldn't be opposed to 15-20% of the market operating on fuel derived from renewable resources, even though the land utilized to grow those resources could also be utilized to grow food or a cash crop that is smokeable.
In reply to logdog (Forum Supporter) :
If you're not at risk of breaking an arm due to kick back from attempting to start your vehicle, are you even motoring?
In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
Who is to say that it isn't?
Although, there are very much space and resource issues with 100% fleet wide with any fuel that is >E20.
In reply to Erich :
Thank you for your service.
YoursTruly said:In reply to 1SlowVW :
I hadn't seen it this way. It is the newest tech, so they not only have to talk about, they must seem excited about it to get clicks. This might be the thing to change my mind.
Remember when the hellcat launched. Everyone was going nuts 707hp with warranty. It was insane now it's been normalized somewhat. Did those 707hp cars really have any impact on most enthusiasts ?
I guess in some ways yes, it set a new benchmark and when we got to see them in the wild we could recognize them as different. But for the most part 99% of enthusiast will never own one...and that's quite a mainstream car.
EVs will change the market, but it's not going to change my love for junky old cars with junky turbo set ups anymore than it will change the jeep enthusiasts love for jeeping or the autocrossers (how do you identify) love of dodging cones.
I deal with hardheaded kids on the regular.
This one is up there.
Wasnt there a Tesla in the UTCC a few weeks back? Can we not modify suspension on an EV? What about aero?
Heck, arent there EV/Tesla ENTHUSIASTS out there?
You'll need to log in to post.
