Thanks to all for the depressing info...
Keith, thank your wife as well; I have been reading up on this situation and was afraid that was going to be the outcome. Seems like the industry lobbyists managed to push this through to protect their interests at the expense of the homeowners. I'll likely end up paying this and then filing against him in small claims court as I have an address for him in another town where he owns a home.
Russ
In reply to russde :
Sorry to hear that. Please keep up updated as your situation is extremely educational. I will likely be hiring out a few jobs soon and would not have known to even worry about this possibility.
Get a lien release from the material suppliers AND the contractor and get it for each each payment made to the contractor. You want both partial releases through the project and full and final releases at the end. Not just for the final payment. I also NEVER pay anything up front to the contractor. If a contractor needs upfront $$$ you probably should not be dealing with them. No lien releases no $$$. How I do it with the construction projects my company administers to. I use standard AIA contracts (AIA 101 and A201) with a set of supplemental general conditions. Good contractors realize that these documents protect them and the owner equally. Contractors that balk at using these documents make my spidey senses tingle. I advise clients that this is necessary unless they can afford to pay for things twice never mind all the other legal protection these documents afford them. Are these AIA documents over kill for a 20K project? Absolutely but they are so easy to fill out as I have used them so many times I use them on all projects now. I actually charge clients more to use the abbreviated AIA contracts as it takes me longer to fill them out because I use them so infrequently and I know that they afford all paries less legal protection.
(not) WilD (Matt) said:Keith Tanner said:Get a lien release. Get a lien release. Get a lien release.
I understand this, but when you hire a contractor, how do you know "who" to get a lien release from? If the guy you hired is willing to take the money and run, what's to stop them from producing whatever (fake) paper that looks legit to get that money handed over. This is just something that has bothered me as it seems like pretty much anyone can show up and slap a lien on your home, even suppliers you never knew existed. I'm actually surprised more fraud doesn't happen on the lien side of the equation, although I'm sure it does happen. This is assuming a lien can be placed without a court judgment, which I have read conflicting things on.
Release of liens have to be notarized. This cuts way down on the fakes. And yes I have checked the validity of notary before. Easy to do on the state web site.
Funny but true story I know of an owner that paid a contractor via there Visa (they had a 5 figure limit and they wanted the points or miles or something) The contractor had one of those square things or somthing similar on there phone so it at the time was a win win. The contractor skipped and the owner filed against the credit card company. I think they got there $$$$ back from Visa and the contractor now had Visa after them.
russde said:Thanks to all for the depressing info...
Keith, thank your wife as well; I have been reading up on this situation and was afraid that was going to be the outcome. Seems like the industry lobbyists managed to push this through to protect their interests at the expense of the homeowners. I'll likely end up paying this and then filing against him in small claims court as I have an address for him in another town where he owns a home.
Russ
It's a sucky situation for sure. Good luck chasing him down.
While we were discussing this, my wife told me about some friends who were having a house built. Turns out the drywaller skipped out on the bill so the drywall supplier came after them. The home owner worked at the hospital and looked up the drywaller's records to track him down...which them got the home owner fired for the HIPAA violation. So it could be worse!
This thread has made me realize that I'm going to do all the renovations to my home myself. What a nightmare!
It is crappy all around - if the contractor takes the materials, doesn’t pay, then skips out, the provider is out. Then they come after you and you are out.
I had to deal with this but didn’t pay my last payment so I deducted the outstanding balances from that.
You can get receipts from the suppliers to verify verify that they were paid.
I’d tell them to come get their concrete back or show me the contract they had with me where I promised to pay them. This is 100% between them and the guy they sold something to.
It astounds me that they can go after someone they had no relationship with. Go ahead and put the lien on my house, I’ll pay it if/when I ever sell.
So for those in the know-what are the actual teeth in this? Does the concrete guy have to take the homeowner to court or can they just slap a lien on the property? If they take the homeowner to court and the homeowner verifies they have no relationship with the concrete company are they still likely to be required to pay? If they are required to pay is it any worse that they made the courts tell them to pay-court costs, dinged credit, etc? If they slap a lien of the property does it expire or will it haunt the property forever?
Can't speak for everywhere, but here if the concrete is on your property and not paid for the supplier just fills out a form at the courthouse and boom they have a lien on the property. They never go away and typically after a certain amount of time the supplier just forecloses on the property. At that point if you have a mortgage the lender will usually step in and pay off the supplier to protect their interests but their costs will eventually get passed along to you in the most profitable for them way possible.
In my case the contractor bounced a check to the concrete company, so they had proof of the contractor being obligated to pay and they still came after me. They did turn the check over to me and I turned it over to the attorney general, who then decided to not prosecute so I got nothing. I am still tempted to sell it to a collection agency just to have them ruin the guys credit and hound him for a while.
Isn't each supplier required to notify the homeowner of their right to file a lien when the project starts? I'd assume there is some notification requirement, otherwise how would the homeowner know who to request a lien release from? I'd look into this angle and make sure if there was a notification requirement the supplier complied.
When my house was being built I received a ton of notifications from suppliers about their right to file a lien. The bank made sure each was satisfied before the released the final payment. At the time I was told to save each one of the notices, because if they didn't meet certain timing requirements they wouldn't be valid.
Hoondavan said:Isn't each supplier required to notify the homeowner of their right to file a lien when the project starts? I'd assume there is some notification requirement, otherwise how would the homeowner know who to request a lien release from? I'd look into this angle and make sure if there was a notification requirement the supplier complied.
I'll check with our lawyer when I see him...good thought
russde said:Thanks to all for the depressing info...
Keith, thank your wife as well; I have been reading up on this situation and was afraid that was going to be the outcome. Seems like the industry lobbyists managed to push this through to protect their interests at the expense of the homeowners. I'll likely end up paying this and then filing against him in small claims court as I have an address for him in another town where he owns a home.
Russ
That's what I would do, pay the cement company and sue in small claims court.
You win automatically if he doesn't show. You can be awarded triple damages here in Florida and in some other states.
If he doesn't settle after the judgement, the court will allow you to confiscate property. You can show up at a job and take his truck and tools. If you're feeling like being a nice guy, you can give him 30 minutes to get the cash together. You can also place a lien on his house.
dean1484 said:Get a lien release from the material suppliers AND the contractor and get it for each each payment made to the contractor. You want both partial releases through the project and full and final releases at the end. Not just for the final payment. I also NEVER pay anything up front to the contractor. If a contractor needs upfront $$$ you probably should not be dealing with them. No lien releases no $$$. How I do it with the construction projects my company administers to. I use standard AIA contracts (AIA 101 and A201) with a set of supplemental general conditions. Good contractors realize that these documents protect them and the owner equally. Contractors that balk at using these documents make my spidey senses tingle. I advise clients that this is necessary unless they can afford to pay for things twice never mind all the other legal protection these documents afford them. Are these AIA documents over kill for a 20K project? Absolutely but they are so easy to fill out as I have used them so many times I use them on all projects now. I actually charge clients more to use the abbreviated AIA contracts as it takes me longer to fill them out because I use them so infrequently and I know that they afford all paries less legal protection.
As a contractor i can say this: Most the time getting some money upfront is a test of mutual trust, not because the company desperately needs it to start your job. You have to trust them, and they have to trust you. You shouldn't pay all upfront but a percentage is pretty standard, depending on the job size and money involved say....25% on small things.
Ive turned down numerous jobs that didn't want to pay until completion, recently someone wanted me to remodel an older Victorian house, it was substantial remodeling and the end cost was in the 100k vicinity. Im not The Bank of Antihero here, no deal
russde said:Hoondavan said:Isn't each supplier required to notify the homeowner of their right to file a lien when the project starts? I'd assume there is some notification requirement, otherwise how would the homeowner know who to request a lien release from? I'd look into this angle and make sure if there was a notification requirement the supplier complied.
I'll check with our lawyer when I see him...good thought
Here Palm Beach county will send you a notice as soon as the contractor applies and is granted a permit to do any work. So, yes you do get a notice.
I can take a picture of what it looks like, but I am not sure it mentions who the suppliers are. Its on you to figure that out and make sure they get paid.
Antihero said:dean1484 said:Get a lien release from the material suppliers AND the contractor and get it for each each payment made to the contractor. You want both partial releases through the project and full and final releases at the end. Not just for the final payment. I also NEVER pay anything up front to the contractor. If a contractor needs upfront $$$ you probably should not be dealing with them. No lien releases no $$$. How I do it with the construction projects my company administers to. I use standard AIA contracts (AIA 101 and A201) with a set of supplemental general conditions. Good contractors realize that these documents protect them and the owner equally. Contractors that balk at using these documents make my spidey senses tingle. I advise clients that this is necessary unless they can afford to pay for things twice never mind all the other legal protection these documents afford them. Are these AIA documents over kill for a 20K project? Absolutely but they are so easy to fill out as I have used them so many times I use them on all projects now. I actually charge clients more to use the abbreviated AIA contracts as it takes me longer to fill them out because I use them so infrequently and I know that they afford all paries less legal protection.
As a contractor i can say this: Most the time getting some money upfront is a test of mutual trust, not because the company desperately needs it to start your job. You have to trust them, and they have to trust you. You shouldnt pay all upfront but a percentage is pretty standard, depending on the job size and money involved say....25% on small things.
Ive turned down numerous jobs that didnt want to pay until completeion, recently someone wanted me to remodel an older victorian house, it was substantial remodeling and the end cost was in the 100k vicicnity. Im not The Bank of Antihero here, no deal
I agree. Good luck finding anyone to agree to do any work without some form of downpayment.
Last job I contracted, they wanted 10% upfront in order to start the permit process. Once the permits are granted, another 30% or so and the. Two more payments, the last one once the job was finished.
Floating Doc said:russde said:Thanks to all for the depressing info...
Keith, thank your wife as well; I have been reading up on this situation and was afraid that was going to be the outcome. Seems like the industry lobbyists managed to push this through to protect their interests at the expense of the homeowners. I'll likely end up paying this and then filing against him in small claims court as I have an address for him in another town where he owns a home.
Russ
That's what I would do, pay the cement company and sue in small claims court.
You win automatically if he doesn't show. You can be awarded triple damages here in Florida and in some other states.
If he doesn't settle after the judgement, the court will allow you to confiscate property. You can show up at a job and take his truck and tools. If you're feeling like being a nice guy, you can give him 30 minutes to get the cash together. You can also place a lien on his house.
You are assuming he owns the truck or a house or anything for that matter. Chances are if he skipped the cement for a walkway, he will not have anything to his name. Scammers like these are pros at getting away with it much more often than not.
Hoondavan said:Isn't each supplier required to notify the homeowner of their right to file a lien when the project starts? I'd assume there is some notification requirement, otherwise how would the homeowner know who to request a lien release from? I'd look into this angle and make sure if there was a notification requirement the supplier complied.
When my house was being built I received a ton of notifications from suppliers about their right to file a lien. The bank made sure each was satisfied before the released the final payment. At the time I was told to save each one of the notices, because if they didn't meet certain timing requirements they wouldn't be valid.
In WA yes, homeowner and GC each get one copy from the supplier.
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