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NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/13/20 3:51 p.m.

Good news! Adirondack #25, one of three remaining Alco RSC-2s, was facing the torch after the Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS chapter got into a disagreement with the Utica Children's Museum, who they donated the locomotive too. After a rapid fundraising effort, Adirondack #25, the Santa Fe Super Chief dining car its coupled to and a PRR N5 cabin car out behind the museum are all going to be moved up to Adirondack Railroad's Remsen, NY depot, cosmetically cleaned up and displayed.

The U&MV Chapter says they want to assess restoring the locomotive to operation, but I think that might be a pipe dream. New York, Susquehanna & Western stripped the 244 engine down to a bare block, yanked all 4 traction motors and scavenged the air compressors out of it. The main and auxiliary generators are still there, but I have to assume that if they were any good then NYS&W would have taken those too. Keeping an Alco 244 running is difficult, restoring a non-operating 244 to operation is nigh impossible.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
12/13/20 4:31 p.m.
NickD said:

Recently, while doing water main repairs in the area, Syracuse DPW actually unearthed rails and ties that had just been paved over repeatedly

The street I used to live next to in Burnaby B.C. was one of the oldest in the city. It ran from Vancouver (the big city), through Burnaby to New Westminster which was the capitol of British Columbia at the time. It was supposed to be the fastest route from downtown Vancouver to the capitol. We were a British colony so it's called Kingsway.

I lived there about 10 years ago and they had torn up the pavement to do some repair work and you could see the cobblestones and rails for the BC Electric Railway Interurban line under the street. I think they should have left the cobbles but it is probably really costly to maintain.

Recon1342
Recon1342 Dork
12/13/20 7:26 p.m.

Caught the local making his rounds-

kazoospec
kazoospec UberDork
12/13/20 7:40 p.m.

In reply to Recon1342 :

Grand Elk?  Where's that at?  

Recon1342
Recon1342 Dork
12/13/20 7:50 p.m.

In reply to kazoospec :

My hometown, Twin Falls, Idaho.   
 

Teh railroad is Eastern Idaho Railroad, aka the EIRR. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Idaho_Railroad

Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter)
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
12/13/20 8:35 p.m.

In reply to NickD :

Regarding the Alco 244. How practical can an old locomotive be "repowered" with later components? Sort of like putting a LS and a 4L80E in a '65 Impala vs a number matching correct resto. Or is it just too much re-enginnering? (pardon the pun).

kazoospec
kazoospec UberDork
12/13/20 8:47 p.m.

Weird.  Livery is pretty much exactly like Grand Elk, a small local.  It's so similar, I actually checked the engine roster to be sure there isn't a number 3916.  Mark is the same and logo is very similar, so maybe it's the same parent company.

Grand Elk Local:

Railroad Line Forums - Thursday PROTO Photo 8-2-12

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/14/20 6:47 a.m.

Mohawk, Adirondack & Northern Alco C424 #806, still in BC Rail two-tone green, with the fireman and brakeman out on the pilot sanding the rails the old-fashioned way after the sander broke and the train stalled at the sag in Big Woodhull. This was a ballast rehab train for the Snow Junction-Thendara section of the Adirondack Scenic Railroad and the photo was from 1998.

914Driver
914Driver MegaDork
12/14/20 8:43 a.m.

Smithsonian series called Mighty Trains; I caught an episode on New Zealand where they fixed rails.  It's about 120* in the desert and rails bend, they made ceramic pots to slip over the point where rails are connected then made molten metal on spot and made the rail one rail miles long.  Less warping.

I believe this is the trailer.

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/14/20 8:49 a.m.
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to NickD :

Regarding the Alco 244. How practical can an old locomotive be "repowered" with later components? Sort of like putting a LS and a 4L80E in a '65 Impala vs a number matching correct resto. Or is it just too much re-enginnering? (pardon the pun).

Its been done. Alcos were fairly frequently repowered from the old 244 to the much better 251 engine. Railroads liked Alcos, they were tough, they made more power on less cylinders, they had the best electrical gear (GE), they outpulled their GM rivals, and the early RS-1s thru RS-3s had excellent visibility. It was just that that damn 244 engine was troublesome. D&H repowered a handful of RS-3s with 2000hp 251 engines and in '74 they had the last 4 PAs repowered with 251 engines to haul Amtrak's Adirondack.

EMD made it really easy. The updated 645 engine was the same architecture as the original 567 engine, just with a larger bore. You could bolt a 645 "power pack" (cylinder heads, liners, pistons and rods) onto a 567 and make it a 645. A lot of old EMDs running around have had 645 assemblies installed, although the 567 is still well suppported as well. EMD's Dash-2 electrical upgrades have also been grafted to a number of units. Good examples are Illinois Central's "FP10" or Burlington Northern's "E9Am" or the former Norfolk Southern F9 executive units (now on Reading & Northern). They look like a classic EMD bulldog unit, but under the hood they are packing 645 engines, Dash-2 electricals and Head-End Power generators in place of steam boilers.

Baldwin and Fairbanks-Morse and Lima-Hamilton never had a second series of engines, so they were never updated with newer in-brand parts. But plenty of them were bastardized with Alco and EMD engines. C&NW had EMD-repowered Baldwin AS16s, while Nickel Plate rebuilt a few AS16s with Alco 251 motors, Wabash overhauled F-M Train Masters with Alco 251 engines and New York Central had some EMD-repowered Lima-Hamilton road switchers that miraculously survived into the Penn Central era. Alcos were also EMD-repowered, like Penn Central/Conrail/Amtrak "Dewitt Geeps" (an RS-3 with a 1200hp EMD 567 out of an E8/E9) or ATSF's single EMD-repowered Alco PA or Rock Island's "Christine", a DL-109 with twin 1000hp EMD 567s out of an E7. And Morrison-Knudsen even rebuilt a single GE U25B with a proto-wide cab and a 1500hp EMD engine.

In the late '60s, Santa Fe had purged most of it's non-EMD and non-GE road switchers but had a bunch of old oddball Baldwin and Fairbanks-Morse and Alco switchers. they embarked on a program to rebuild them all with EMD power to standardize their fleet a little. They rebuilt a single Baldwin VO-1000, and although the end result worked quite well, the cost was equal to, if not exceeding, the cost of new switchers and so they only ran the one locomotive through. It was nicknamed the "Beep", a contraction of Baldwin and Geep (it wore an EMD GP long lood)

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/14/20 9:06 a.m.
kazoospec said:

In reply to Recon1342 :

Grand Elk?  Where's that at?  

I just checked & they're both Watco railroads, so that explains the common livery. 

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/14/20 11:09 a.m.

I guess the big news locally was that New York, Susquehanna & Western #3040, their ex-Atlanta & West Point/Seaboard Air Line/CSX GP40, broke down. The #3040 was the Susie-Q's power for their operations on the ex-Erie-Lackawanna Utica Branch, so they made a phone call and Mohawk, Adirondack & Northern came to their rescue with Alco C424 #2453. #2453 rescued #3040 and then was on loan to the NYS&W for the better part of a week while the Geep was getting fixed. The NYS&W Utica branch is former E-L territory and #2453 was an Erie-Lackawanna locomotive in a previous life (before heading north to British Columbia for a while) so it was a nice homecoming, even running down Schuyler Street in Utica and do the oddball F.X. Matt Brewery switching operation. Warms an Alco fan's heart to see a Century rescuing a Geep.

Over 5 days, the #2453 got to stretch her legs and head to some different locations like Sangerfield and Waterville.

With NYS&W #3040 back up and running, #2453 has gone back to the MA&N

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/14/20 11:12 a.m.

#2453 off to come to the Susie-Q's rescue

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/14/20 11:13 a.m.

Back on E-L home turf on Schuyler Street

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/14/20 11:15 a.m.

And the always amazing F.X. Matt switching job. Probably the first time this has been done with 2 engines. I need to figure out when they do this and go watch

02Pilot
02Pilot UltraDork
12/14/20 11:44 a.m.

Street running is fascinating. I know the closest place to me where it happens is in Hudson, NY, where CSX does some, but I have no idea how often or when; I think it only serves a single customer on that spur. I should try to find out.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
12/14/20 11:57 a.m.

In reply to 914Driver :

A friend of mine used to build equipment to repair track, apparently almost everything is thermite welded these days.

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/14/20 12:45 p.m.

In reply to 02Pilot :

MA&N has a short stretch of street running here in Rome, over a tiny stretch of what used to be the New York Central Watertown Division. It doesn't even make it out of Rome before the rails are gone. But most interesting is the dual-use bridge where one lane is also for the railroad.

slowbird
slowbird SuperDork
12/14/20 12:47 p.m.

I saw a model railroad with a track running right in the middle of the street and I thought, that seems weird. Then later found out it's an actual thing. Can't think of any tracks like that around where I live, the closest to it would be tracks that run next to the road but separated from it. Pretty interesting how the cars dodge around the train.

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/14/20 1:02 p.m.

In reply to slowbird :

The fellow whose videos I posted, Railroading Rambler, has a bunch of videos of the NYS&W Schuyler Street operation and some of them are anxiety inducing to watch, with cars weaving around the train. I imagine operating on that stretch the engineer probably has his hand on the emergency brake lever the whole time.

RichardNZ
RichardNZ GRM+ Memberand Reader
12/14/20 8:22 p.m.

In reply to 914Driver :

Hee hee, went to have a look but as I'm in NZ I'm not allowed to see it unless I subscribe to Apple TV crying
 

120 sounds a little warm (50 C) and the official NZ record is under 40 but local heating can account for quite a bit, said he who filled his crash helmet with water from a stream a fortnight ago to cool down ...

R

PS keep this thread rolling NickD, I've been really enjoying it smiley

ScottyB
ScottyB Reader
12/15/20 10:13 a.m.
02Pilot said:

Street running is fascinating.

it is to me as well.  we have a well known location in my city but i haven't gone down there to see it.  apparently they even pull a "county fair" train through there annually which must be a sight.

our locals are horrific drivers though, so lots of traffic doing things they probably shouldn't with a train bearing down on them.  this would give me insane anxiety as an engineer.
 

 

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/15/20 1:12 p.m.

On the subject of street running, the New York Central main line used to run right through the middle of Oneida, NY, four tracks wide. This was not a branch or a lightly traveled division. This was part of The Water Level Route. And while they were supposed to reduce speed to 30mph, the passenger trains, when running late, would go through there at 60, 70, 80. That came to an end in December of '63 when a Central train, the Lake Shore Limited I believe, came ripping through at 80mph and plastered a fire truck responding to a call at 6:55am. Killed all the firefighters, but the train crew was unhurt. After that, the Central relocated the mainline a few miles out of town, abandoning the line through Oneida in '65. That was the last time that Oneida, NY had passenger service, as the NYO&W had abandoned passenger service in '53, and when the NYC moved the line they tore down the passenger station and didn't build a new one.

There had also been another passenger train wreck there in 1950, when the North Star hit a boxcar door that had fallen off and was laying on the rails. The train was doing about 75mph when it hit the boxcar door and derailed the locomotive and all eleven cars, killed the engineer and fireman and injured eleven others aboard. The derailment damaged all four tracks and the NYC had to divert around onto the West Shore Railroad, a subsidiary that ran from Weehawken, NJ to Buffalo, NY that the NYC had acquired in the early 1900s and typically used as a freight-only line. Perhaps the most noteworthy feature of the West Shore was the third rail electrified interurban service between Utica, NY and Syracuse, NY 

I've also read accounts of people saying they went to Oneida to watch the Central and saw Hudsons come tearing though the middle of the city at 90mph, throttle all the way out, reverser in the "company notch". Can you imagine the sight and sound of that? Probably didn't do much good for the buildings on either side of the track.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
12/15/20 1:53 p.m.

This is local to me in space, but not time.  Maybe 2 miles from my house.  Taken looking north, probably 20-25 years ago.

The Amtrak line is the NE Corridor about 10 miles south of Wilmington, DE.  They actually just built a new station about a mile north of this pic in Newark, after years of having just a ticket kiosk and sparse passenger service.

The Conrail/CSX siding used to serve the Chrysler Newark Assembly plant in the background.  Originally constructed in the '30s, it built M48 and M60 Patton tanks in the 1950s.  Then it built a variety of Chrysler vehicles, starting with the Lancer / Dart / Valiant in 1960.  In 1997 the spent about $650M substantially renovating and expanding.  That lasted a whole 10 years.  They announced closure in 2007 and the last Durango and/or Aspen rolled off the line at the end of 2008.

The adjacent University of Delaware bought the huge property for a $24M song in 2009.  They promptly tore down most of the buildings.  Some of the siding still remains in service because UD has made it into a public / private science-technology-industry center.

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
12/15/20 2:59 p.m.

Another terrible accident involving the New York Central's Lake Shore Limited was the 1940 Gulf Curve Disaster in Little Falls, NY.

The Lake Shore Limited had left Grand Central at 6:50PM with 250 passengers aboard, a Hudson in the lead, an express car, a baggage car and 13 Pullman cars. It arrived in Albany 14 minutes late and then, due to complaints of the engine not steaming well, had another Hudson, #5315, swapped on, costing it another 7 minutes. En route to its next stop in Utica, NY, it passed St. Johnsville another 2 minutes behind schedule. Just east of Little Falls, NY was Gulf Curve, a 7 degree turn that was the tightest on all of the New York Central. Gulf Curve had a 45mph speed limit, after a 1906 derailment had occured there and killed two people.

Approaching Gulf Curve at 74mph, the engineer, Jesse Earl, who was 65 years old, a 34 year veteran with NYC and one month from retirement, closed the throttle on #5315 but did not apply the brake. The train did not bleed off sufficient speed to navigate the curve, but the sudden throttle closing caused the slack to run in and jack-knife the tender and locomotive and the train derailed at 59mph. It cut across the other three tracks, traveling some 400 feet, before striking a rock embankment. The impact ripped the trailing truck off of #5315 and flung it into the Mohawk River and ruptured the boiler of, causing a boiler explosion that flung shrapnel over a quarter-mile away and instantly killed the fireman, J.Y. Smith. Eleven of the cars overturned and sustained major damage, with one of the cars ending up on its side on Main Street.

Over 4000 people responded to the crash site, civilians and first responders alike, to begin cutting into the wreckage to rescue those alive. Engineer Earl survived the crash but died of injuries that he suffered. In addition to him and the fireman  26 passengers, 2 Pullman porters, and 1 train porter were killed while 47 passengers, 1 Pullman porter, 2 dining-car employees, and 1 other employee were injured. The collision also snarled up traffic on the NYC, resulting in them diverting traffic over the West Shore to bypass the accident.

Most bizarre was that there were 35 Chinese nationals aboard the last car of the train, being escorted by a federal martial for deportation. Reports of their destination are varied. Some sources say that they were headed to San Francisco to be shipped overseas. Others say that they were being transported up to Canada, since they had illegally entered the US from Canada. All of them and their escort were unharmed, as their car remained upright.

The exact reason for the derailment was never determined. Earl was a long-time engineer in good-standing who was familiar with the area and would have known to slow for Gulf Curve. The brakes had been tested at Albany when #5315 had been swapped on and had also worked for other speed restrictions. The roadbed and tracks were found to be in good condition. The belief is that Earl, knowing that passenger trains were losing ground to airlines and cars, was feeling competitive pressure and was trying to make up time. Also, one of the cars in the train was to be set out at Utica and coupled onto a train heading up the Adirondack Division and he may have been concerned with delaying that train or the passengers missing their connection

After the incident, the #5315 was scrapped due to the damage. I cannot find whether she was scrapped at Syracuse or Albany. This made her the first Hudson retired and the only Hudson that was not repaired and returned to service following a derailment or collision. The damaged cars were also presumably retired. The New York Central was pressured into redesigning the Gulf Curve, although World War II would delay that construction until '45. The radius was reduced from 7 degrees to 1 degree, allowing trains to maintain speed through Little Falls.

Today a small historical marker marks the location. I should go find it one of these days.

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