Grassroots Railroad Sports?

NickD said:

In reply to Appleseed :

The first one is Oshawa, I know

Yup. 1980.

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to NickD :

I was looking at this Nickel Plate map, which includes many - but definitely not all - of the other railroads in the east & midwest at that time, and it's just crazy how overdeveloped the US railroad system was at that point. 
 

Pretty much highlights why Conrail had to come into existence. Something had to go. Just looking at some of the local cities around me, they all had multiple Class Is serving them, whether they warranted it or not.

Camden, NY, population less than 5000, had both the New York Central and Lehigh Valley, now has none. 

Sylvan Beach, NY, population less than 1000, had the NYO&W and Lehigh Valley, now has none.

Rome, NY, population 30,000, had the New York Central and the NYO&W, now has CSX/Amtrak.

Oneida, NY, population 10,000, had the New York Central, NYO&W, West Shore Railroad, and the Oneida Railway 3rd-rail interurban over the West Shore. Now just has CSX, no passenger service.

Utica, NY had three class Is (NYC, NYO&W, DL&W) but in their defense, Utica was once on track to be the 5th largest city in the US. It has CSX and Amtrak service, plus regional service in the NYS&W and MA&N. 

And that's just in my area. Think about all the tiny little towns in Pennsylvania and Ohio and other parts of NY that were in the same situation.

The early "Rainbow Years" of Conrail

The fact that Conrail actually succeeded is a bit of a miracle. The idea of taking 7 run-down and bankrupt railroads that all more or less served the same areas (Ann Arbor Railroad was a bit of an outlier) and jamming them all together under the roof seems like a recipe for failure. But it also gave Conrail its strengths. They had a huge pool of motive power, so they could ditch the old, worn-out junk and take the shiny new GE U-boats from Penn Central and the big Alcos from the Lehigh Valley and the nice SD45s from the Erie-Lackawanna and throw away the old GP7s and RS-3s (this was made easier by the fact that almost all of the oddball Baldwins and Fairbanks-Morses and 244-powered Alcos were long gone before Conrail was formed). Same with facilities. Take the best yards and shops from all of them, chuck out the old, the obsolete, the run-down, the too-small. They could cherry pick the best routes to operate, use the 3R Act to throw away the unprofitable lines, and mix and match them to make the best overall route. DL&W had the fastest route to Buffalo, so keep that, Erie had the longest route to Chicago, so throw that away and use the NYC Water Level Route from Buffalo to Chicago, CNJ was essentially worthless so give that to the government for transit usage, Erie had the biggest clearances in the east thanks to the 6'-gauge days so use that for double-stack and trailer-on-flatcar trains, PRR's electric freight operations are pretty nifty and cheap to operate so use that as long as the locomotives are in good shape and ditch it when it comes time to replace them.

A pair of Conrail "Dewitt Geeps" running up Schuyler Street in Utica in October of '81. Check out the '63 Plymouth to the left. That's almost a 20 year old car and it looks mint.

Conrail U25B crossing Genesee Street in Utica on it's way to Sangerfield

A freshly repainted Conrail GP40 grinds up Horseshoe Curve with a TOFC load. The EMD behind #6451 still wears Erie-Lackawanna gray, yellow and maroon.

Conrail diesels towing off a string of retired Conrail GG1 electrics to the boneyard.

Conrail-patched ex-EL Alco Centuries leaving Kent

Conrail blue, Reading green & yellow and Penn Central black, all in one lash-up. #2049 is one of Reading's two Alco C430s, the only one painted Conrail blue, and one of only 16 total built.

Conrail GP30s under the wires in Morrisville in 1978. I'm curious why there is two Burlington Northern cabooses two cars behind the locomotives.

An Amtrak E60C electric, a Conrail executive E8A and a Conrail GG1 being prepped at Philly in '77. When South East Pennsylvania Transit Authority went on strike in '77, Amtrak and Conrail worked together to pick up the slack, including Conrail putting their freight GG1s back in passenger service.

Conrail does lost points for the absolutely terrible Bicentennial livery they did on GG1 #4800. #4800 is noteworthy for being the only GG1 with a riveted body, earning the nickname "Old Rivets". When Raymond Loewy was brought on board, he made the suggestion to make the move to welded-steel bodies. Raymond Loewy did not design the body for the GG1, though he is often attributed as such. Industrial designer Donal Dohner designed the body, first used on the PRR's P5a electrics, and then applied to the GG1. CR #4800 was also unique in being the only GG1 to wear Conrail blue, the rest wore Penn Central black through their entire career.

A couple pages back, we were discussing the Erie-painted E8A #833 and New York & Greenwood Lake RS-3 at Port Jervis and I said that the now-defunct NY&GL "had a bunch of equipment over at Passaic, including an ex-LIRR Alco FA cab car, that is facing an uncertain future as well."

Well, it was recently announced that that equipment has largely found homes. NY&GL GP9 #1268 (ex-Northern Pacific #317) and FA-1 #7375 (ex-Spokane, Portland & Seattle #860A/Long Island HEP car #606) have been acquired by Klarr Locomotive Industries (KLIX) and are headed for eventual restoration and static display at the Inland Northwest Rail Museum near Spokane, WA. 

Meanwhile, GP9 #1267 (ex-Great Northern #718) has been acquired by DeAndre Walters, a locomotive electrician for Metro-North and a volunteer at the Adirondack Railroad in Utica, NY. So that one will be coming up my way. He's already acquired most of the required parts to get it running again, and is going to upgrade it with newer switchgear, the newer 26L brake system and dynamic brakes. Adirondack will be using it on their trains from Utica to Tupper Lake. I just hope that the arrival of the GP9 doesn't signal the beginning of the end for their two MLW RS-18us

Three ex-C&NW boxcars (#32707, #32717, and #32751) have been acquired by the Tioga Transportation Society, non-profit organization that is affiliated with the Stourbridge Line, where the cars are currently stored. They will be returned to active maintenance-of-way service after over a decade of being used for stationary storage.They are still trying to find homes for ex-Long Island P72 coach #2939 and the ex-CN/GTW observation car/medical car/rules instruction car Wabascon Lake. Both have some severe cosmetic issues - the P72 needs a new floor and the CN/GTW car needs a new roof (and a bunch of other problems fixed related to not having a solid roof for the past decade), and they are looking for someone to take them "as is, where is."

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/649616355993216/

Anyone want a Lehigh & New England 4-wheel bobber caboose? It's in a barn in Columbus, Ohio for the low, low price of $8k. Ad is replete with super E36 M3ty pictures and no real description, but people who have looked at it say the owner cut the cupola off the top because it wouldn't fit in the barn with it on, and then dragged the cupola alongside the barn with a chain and tractor and mangled it up pretty bad. So, it's a project caboose.

Doing a quick Facebook Marketplace search for "Caboose" turned up not one, but two Delaware & Hudson cabooses for sale by the same person near me in Dryden, New York.  https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/267076131430430/?ref=search&referral_code=undefined

One is a D&H "wide vision" caboose, #35715, for $9,000. That one looks to be complete and pretty solid.

The other is a D&H bay-window caboose, #35729, also for $9000, and that one appears to be missing the trucks, sinking into the ground and completely gutted.

I think I got hantavirus from that second pic

I wonder if the caboose's (Cabeese?) were originally slated to be used as a room for a train layout or a club house to hang out in and time got in the way of that happening.

In reply to DjGreggieP :

Either that, or the guy was going to try and start a caboose motel.

If I was going to buy one of the two, I'd take the wide vision caboose, just because it needs less work. But if I wanted to use one to build a model railroad in, I'd take the bay window caboose. Traditional cupola cabooses have weird, chopped-up floor layouts, but the bay window cars are just a nice big rectangular room.

My favorite cabooses are still the externally-braced 1890s-era caboooses that Burlington Northern inherited from Fort Worth & Denver. There's just something incongruously hilarious about that modern corporate paint on that ancient caboose.

NickD said:

I recently read an article where someone was pointing out how rail preservationists have honestly done a somewhat terrible job of preservation. They were slow on the draw in the '50s and '60s and let a lot of stuff get away. But then, they've never moved on from that era. Some important equipment from the '70s and '80s has gone completely extinct or is nearing extinction and there is no effort to save any of it, because they're hung up on saving every F- and E-Unit... The GE C30-7 could be the next EMD E7 (once commonplace, but now only one left in existence) and would anyone really know?

Well, I called this one. The C30-7 sold almost 1200 units, but they've really dwindled in numbers over the years. I can't recall the exact number still in existence but I believe it is less than 100. Only two were considered "safe". A CSX C30-7 converted to a yard slug was donated to Marshall University in Huntington and tourist line New Hope & Ivyland used one, #7087, on their trains as recently as 2017.

Well, as of January 26th, #7087 looks like this

#7087 was taken out of service in 2017 and was cut up last week, along with a host of other GE Dash-7s and Dash-8s stored on the property. Included was a pair of long-stored CSX B36-7s #5843 and #5834, along with Pennsylvania Northeastern C39-8 #8211 and maybe one other C39-8, #8212, "next in line". Those C39-8s are believed to be the last pair of C39-8s in existence, and B36-7s are largely extinct as well. The C32-8, a rare Dash-8 variant that only Conrail bought, also went extinct a few years back, as most groups deemed them "too new to warrant preservation". And with NRE closing up the Silvis and Dixmoor facilities, which have quite a few Dash-7s and Dash-8s stored there, a ton of other GEs are also headed to the scrapyard.

NickD said:

A freshly repainted Conrail GP40 grinds up Horseshoe Curve with a TOFC load. The EMD behind #6451 still wears Erie-Lackawanna gray, yellow and maroon.

It needs some weathering. It doesn't look realistic.

ShawnG said:

NickD said:

A freshly repainted Conrail GP40 grinds up Horseshoe Curve with a TOFC load. The EMD behind #6451 still wears Erie-Lackawanna gray, yellow and maroon.

It needs some weathering. It doesn't look realistic.

It must have left the paint shop at Altoona and immediately headed up the hill. It is reall strange-looking to see it so clean. Worth noting it's not a PR photo either, because if it had been a PR photo, why stick a unit still in Erie-Lackawanna colors behind it? You would make sure all the units were in Conrail paint.

D&H U23B #2307 catching some evening sun outside the D&H's big Colonie shops. I love the slogan: "Colonie Diesel Shop: Where Big Things Happen".

NickD said:

NickD said:

I recently read an article where someone was pointing out how rail preservationists have honestly done a somewhat terrible job of preservation. They were slow on the draw in the '50s and '60s and let a lot of stuff get away. But then, they've never moved on from that era. Some important equipment from the '70s and '80s has gone completely extinct or is nearing extinction and there is no effort to save any of it, because they're hung up on saving every F- and E-Unit... The GE C30-7 could be the next EMD E7 (once commonplace, but now only one left in existence) and would anyone really know?

Well, I called this one. The C30-7 sold almost 1200 units, but they've really dwindled in numbers over the years. I can't recall the exact number still in existence but I believe it is less than 100. Only two were considered "safe". A CSX C30-7 converted to a yard slug was donated to Marshall University in Huntington and tourist line New Hope & Ivyland used one, #7087, on their trains as recently as 2017.

Well, as of January 26th, #7087 looks like this

 

#7087 was taken out of service in 2017 and was cut up last week, along with a host of other GE Dash-7s and Dash-8s stored on the property. Included was a pair of long-stored CSX B36-7s #5843 and #5834, along with Pennsylvania Northeastern C39-8 #8211 and maybe one other C39-8, #8212, "next in line". Those C39-8s are believed to be the last pair of C39-8s in existence, and B36-7s are largely extinct as well. The C32-8, a rare Dash-8 variant that only Conrail bought, also went extinct a few years back, as most groups deemed them "too new to warrant preservation". And with NRE closing up the Silvis and Dixmoor facilities, which have quite a few Dash-7s and Dash-8s stored there, a ton of other GEs are also headed to the scrapyard.

Going back to this, I got thinking. All of the Class Is still roster GP38/39/40s and SD38/40s, both original and Dash-2 variants. Some are on their third or fourth extensive rebuilds, like CSX's SD40-3s, where they even went as far as building all new cabs (nicknamed Spongebob Squarecabs). Hell, Canadian Pacific and Canadian National still roster a bunch of GP9s that have been rebuilt many times. But the contemporary GE U-Boats and Dash-7s have all been completely stricken from Class I rosters (CSX was the last Dash-7 holdout) and many of the Dash-8s are even starting to vanish. Looking at shortlines, most rely heavily on secondhand EMDs and there are quite a few Alco-only lines (MA&N, Delaware-Lackawanna, Arkansas & Missouri, and Battenkill all come to mind), even a handful of Baldwin-heavy lines, but I'm not aware of any shortlines that are really dedicated to GEs. Reading & Northern, the most successful regional line in the US (they set industry record-breaking growth in 2019), had GEs early on, kicked them to the curb, and has been an all-EMD show ever since (GP30s, SD40s, SD50s). New Hope & Ivyland retired #7087, which was built in '81, but is still running an SD40-2 (1972), a GP30 (1963) and a GP9 (1957). So, what is the issue with GE locomotives? Why do they sell well new, but are tossed in the bin quickly?

Well, it just seems that no one really likes the U-boats, Dash-7s and early Dash-8s. Well, at least the people that matter. The bean counters love them, but the engineers and maintenance crews are not big fans.

During the EMD GP40-2/SD40-2 days, EMD was killing it. They were selling just as many as they could build. So, to compete, GE offered really attractive 15 year leases for prices that significantly undercut EMD's locomotives. But GE would not license aftermarket companies to produce replacement parts for their locomotives, unlike EMD. So because GE, like Caterpillar, has a stranglehold on parts supply, GE tends to charge significantly more for parts. A GE voltage regulator was three grand, while a refurbished EMD voltage regulator was $350 with no core charge. And GE also specifies more frequent maintenance intervals for their locomotives. So, once the GEs start getting needy, most railroads just tend to get rid of them. A good example, Rock Island let its 1974 U30Cs sit without repairing them, and then after shutdown none of them sold, and they were scrapped. A former foreman at Silvis recounted how the trustee had set a limit on per unit repair costs, and the GEs always came in over that limit even for minor repairs. So the Rock Island, needing power, ran them into the ground, and then parked them and they would have required too much money to ever be put in service. The lease plan also explains why relatively few survive. Once the 15 year lease expired, most railroads chose to send them back to GE rather than buy out the lease, and GE scrapped them because they would rather sell new than used.

GE's are also more difficult to maintain. The GE FDL engine's power packs come out all in one piece, with the cylinder head, liner, and water jacket, and weigh something like 600lbs each. To remove a power pack for maintenance, absolutely requires a big overhead crane. But an EMD, the power packs come out in seperate parts, so two guys can take them out without the use of a crane. They also use some wacky "bonded drive" rubber coupler to run the oil pump, and the rubber is prone to delaminating with age and then the engine loses oil pressure. It likely has a service interval, but due to the GE parts pricing issues, railroads try to skip it. There is also the fire issue that GE's have, although that seems more prominent on the later electronically-injected Dash-8s and Dash-9s.

A big complaint I always read is that they are "slow to load". With a diesel-electric, you add a notch to the throttle, the engine then increases RPM to the prescribed throttle level, then once the RPM stabilizes, the load regulator gradually increases the electrical power taken from the generator or alternator, and begins to apply this power to the traction motors.  This begins the process of placing a physical load on the engine by making the generator or alternator harder to spin and then the governor adds fuel to maintain that RPM with that additional load. The time between increasing the throttle notch and when the traction motors put out the added power is called "load time". Engineers always complain that GEs are slow to load. Not only is it irritating, but if you are trying to climb a grade and the wheels slip, you start modulating throttle, and if it is slow to load, you can stall out on a grade. I read where part of this is, because they are turbocharged 4 strokes, GE sets the governor to make them rev slower so that they don't throw the huge clouds of smoke like Alcos used to. I read one engineer who said  "you can read a novel by the time these old GE's load up."

Crews also have gripes about the various ergonomic issues that the U-boats and Dash-7s had. "The U-series and -7 series ergonomics were designed by former KGB torture specialists, to inflict maximum amounts of pain and cramping upon the operating and maintenance crews." "I remember those C30-7 cabs were so cramped if you were the person sitting next to the front door you either had to sit sideways or sit with your knees pressed against the door with your feet off the ground. The walkway had those little raised pegs which made it very uncomfortable to sit or get on your knees while working on the engine. Always had a small piece of plywood stashed just in case." "The tall steep steps on the pilot which were like trying to climb freight car grab irons with your grip in your hand." 

Now, that's not to paint an entirely bad picture of GEs. They were reliable when new and properly maintained, they used less fuel than an EMD (that same Alco advantage, same power with less cylinders thanks to their turbocharged 4-stroke design) pulled strong, and reportedly rode pretty good. But the cost of keeping them running and various fiddly little issues send them to early retirements because no one wants to put up with them. An EMD SD40-2 commands a premium over a GE C30-7, but shortlines would rather pay extra for the EMD because it's cheaper and easier to keep running in the long term.