02Pilot said:
jmabarone said:
Not making excuses for civilian casualties, but this is what happens when you use civilian populations as meat shields. One would hope that the innocents involved would get fed up and distance themselves...but I have no idea how difficult that would be.
Similar to the status in Russia...how many people are fed up with the status quo but are powerless to do anything about it?
I did hear an interesting statistic on the radio (haven't spent a ton of time trying to find the poll, but this host is a guy that doesn't say something he cannot back up) that roughly 50% of Palestinians in Gaza supported Hamas BUT 70% felt that Israel need to be destroyed.
As usual, it's much easier to complain than to do something. In both Russia and the Middle East, there are many problems that are largely domestic in origin, and could be very problematic for the respective regimes if blame was laid at their feet. Rather than risk this, they build up their enemies and blame them for everything bad thing that's happening. For ordinary people, many of whom lack the skillset necessary to see the larger picture with any sort of clarity, it's just easier to blame NATO or Israel for all your woes than it is to hold your arbitrary and violence-prone leaders to task.
Does this same logic apply to domestic problems in the US?
02Pilot
PowerDork
11/1/23 9:08 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
02Pilot said:
jmabarone said:
Not making excuses for civilian casualties, but this is what happens when you use civilian populations as meat shields. One would hope that the innocents involved would get fed up and distance themselves...but I have no idea how difficult that would be.
Similar to the status in Russia...how many people are fed up with the status quo but are powerless to do anything about it?
I did hear an interesting statistic on the radio (haven't spent a ton of time trying to find the poll, but this host is a guy that doesn't say something he cannot back up) that roughly 50% of Palestinians in Gaza supported Hamas BUT 70% felt that Israel need to be destroyed.
As usual, it's much easier to complain than to do something. In both Russia and the Middle East, there are many problems that are largely domestic in origin, and could be very problematic for the respective regimes if blame was laid at their feet. Rather than risk this, they build up their enemies and blame them for everything bad thing that's happening. For ordinary people, many of whom lack the skillset necessary to see the larger picture with any sort of clarity, it's just easier to blame NATO or Israel for all your woes than it is to hold your arbitrary and violence-prone leaders to task.
Does this same logic apply to domestic problems in the US?
Broadly speaking, sure, though the circumstances are rather different with respect to available educational opportunities and the nature and stability of the system of government, as well as the moment in time. How tightly one draws the parallel, and the implications thereof, is likely a matter for a different discussion.
02Pilot
PowerDork
11/1/23 9:52 p.m.
A few days old, but useful nonetheless.
02Pilot
PowerDork
11/1/23 10:14 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to 02Pilot :
You know when you point a finger at someone saying it's a then problem there are more fingers pointing at you. There are enough problems here that we mere already promised to be fixed that are worse than ever. This place sure has a strange habit of seeing flaws all over the world or in anyone that disagrees with them and never what is right in front of them.
I'd be lying if I said I understood that.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
02Pilot said:
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to 02Pilot :
You know when you point a finger at someone saying it's a then problem there are more fingers pointing at you. There are enough problems here that we mere already promised to be fixed that are worse than ever. This place sure has a strange habit of seeing flaws all over the world or in anyone that disagrees with them and never what is right in front of them.
I'd be lying if I said I understood that.
Not surprised. You said it's easier to complain than do something. Russia and the middle east have huge domestic problems but blame everyone else for their crap society. The US does it too right under your nose. The US blames Russia and the Middle East.... the more things change.... And you didn't understand that.
All of the donestic problems here have been promised to be solved for generations but it only gets worse. Blame Russia and the Middle East more. I'm sure that will work.
Im trying to teach people to recognize and talk about the real issues. Until that can happen solutions are impossible. If people stopped blaming others and worked together this could all be solved in 6 years.
Reread your post. The first sentence is gibberish.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
...stuff said...
Reread your post. The first sentence is gibberish.
I hate it when grammar and spelling errors get quoted before I can go back and edit them. At that point, "what difference does it make anyway".
In reply to Driven5 :
The proportionality of children casualties of war have always been skewed depending on who's children are being killed. Israeli children have better access to protection from collateral damage. Palestinian children are disproportionately accustomed to death. Why is that?
Palestinian children are known as rats to Israelis, especially hardened IDF folks (You cannot argue this point with me, I was just there in August and heard it more than just on that trip). They have no value assigned to their life. They've been lumped in with Hamas and are "acceptable loses", something we'd never be okay with in other more established nations.
Great, you destroyed the evil folks who took over our country and used us as shields to kill you. You only killed my whole family and smoked everything I know in life during the process. Thanks! All that will happen is solidifying the birth of Hamas 2.0 in 20 years.
Whether you hold the child as a shield or pull the trigger to kill despite the shield, you're wrong.
My question for this group is: If the American govt was evil and killing people indiscriminately, how many of our children would be acceptable loses to us in order for the good guys to take down our govt?
yupididit said:
In reply to Driven5 :
Great, you destroyed the evil folks who took over our country and used us as shields to kill you. You only killed my whole family and smoked everything I know in life during the process. Thanks! All that will happen is solidifying the birth of Hamas 2.0 in 20 years.
Plus eleventy-billion
Re: Civilian/children casualties and who is to blame: 100% agree on the issue of the innocents stuck in the crossfire. Not to try to classify civilians as genuine vs non-genuine innocents, but how many of those civilians that have been killed by Israeli strikes are supportive of Hamas' attacks on Israel?
And now, how many are supportive of Hamas' attacks on Israel AFTER these strikes in Gaza?
One thing I read about Gaza lately was that their population is HEAVILY skewed towards children/youth, the article below says more than half the population is under 18, so likely to be reported in civilian casualty figures as children.
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict
In reply to jmabarone :
It also skews numbers when the combatants are wearing civilian clothing, hiding amongst civilians. How many of those civilians were military age males? Now how many of those were truly just civilians? It's impossible to know when they fight this kind of warfare and they know it. They can skew the numbers to the international community and draw sympathy for the terrible things they do because of it.
There may have been a time in my life I would have cared about them, but not anymore. IT's been a holy war going on my entire life. These people dont' want peace. They want eradication.
yupididit said:
Great, you destroyed the evil folks who took over our country and used us as shields to kill you. You only killed my whole family and smoked everything I know in life during the process. Thanks! All that will happen is solidifying the birth of Hamas 2.0 in 20 years.
I'm curious why you think Israelis' response should be different from the people in Gaza. Do you expect them to suffer their deaths without response? Should they trade deaths every couple of years? Or should Israel be overwhelming in their response in the hope of ending the killing?
The Jewish people have been persecuted and have suffered for millennia. From my perspective, they are being very restrained in their response to the constant killing of their people. More so than I would be in their place.
Thinking of children dying in Gaza makes me think of some of our own crime statistics involving children and gang activity.
What percentage of Hamas fighters qualify as children in those statistics? It may not even be the case of using a kid as a shield as opposed to a "kid" being a combatant.
Note: none of this is to detract from the validity of yupididit's comment.
yupididit said:
In reply to Driven5 :
The proportionality of children casualties of war have always been skewed depending on who's children are being killed. Israeli children have better access to protection from collateral damage. Palestinian children are disproportionately accustomed to death. Why is that?
Palestinian children are known as rats to Israelis, especially hardened IDF folks (You cannot argue this point with me, I was just there in August and heard it more than just on that trip). They have no value assigned to their life. They've been lumped in with Hamas and are "acceptable loses", something we'd never be okay with in other more established nations.
Great, you destroyed the evil folks who took over our country and used us as shields to kill you. You only killed my whole family and smoked everything I know in life during the process. Thanks! All that will happen is solidifying the birth of Hamas 2.0 in 20 years.
Whether you hold the child as a shield or pull the trigger to kill despite the shield, you're wrong.
My question for this group is: If the American govt was evil and killing people indiscriminately, how many of our children would be acceptable loses to us in order for the good guys to take down our govt?
I really hate saying this because someone will twist this to read that I support Hamas and their actions and I certainly do not. But because of the way this war is being executed (bad choice of words) I predict Hamas 2.0 will form in the West Bank within 20 months. Isreal may destroy Hamas and Gaza with it, but the damage inflicted to do so will reap it's successor. Eye for an eye and all of that. Somehow this cycle has to be broken or there will be conflict over that plot of land for the next millenia.
Toyman! said:
yupididit said:
Great, you destroyed the evil folks who took over our country and used us as shields to kill you. You only killed my whole family and smoked everything I know in life during the process. Thanks! All that will happen is solidifying the birth of Hamas 2.0 in 20 years.
I'm curious why you think Israelis' response should be different from the people in Gaza. Do you expect them to suffer their deaths without response? Should they trade deaths every couple of years? Or should Israel be overwhelming in their response in the hope of ending the killing?
The Jewish people have been persecuted and have suffered for millennia. From my perspective, they are being very restrained in their response to the constant killing of their people. More so than I would be in their place.
I'll answer your question once you answer the question I posed at the end of my post. I never stated what I THINK IDF's response should be.
Furthermore, I have no idea what your experience is or your education in regards to whats been happening, but they've been trading deaths every couple of years for decades.
matthewmcl said:
Thinking of children dying in Gaza makes me think of some of our own crime statistics involving children and gang activity.
What percentage of Hamas fighters qualify as children in those statistics? It may not even be the case of using a kid as a shield as opposed to a "kid" being a combatant.
Note: none of this is to detract from the validity of yupididit's comment.
That's a good question. I just wonder how effective it is to tell them to evacuate before getting smashed. Evacuate where? In what way? These people have no food, no gas, nowhere to go. Same with saying "they should turn against Hamas and fight them", fight with what weaponry? Fight while starving? These people have two enemies and cant pick a side for help because neither side has their interest in mind.
In reply to yupididit :
More good questions. I remember wondering why people did not move out of the way before/after Katrina. The reality is, when freeing up enough money for a bus ticket is hard, you are guaranteed being homeless on the other end.
Sure, it is risky where you are, but being homeless over there is risky, too. The devil you know, and all that.
I think it should be pretty apparent to all at this point that any violent actions by either side only increases the extremists on either side. E.g. I am certain there are more "kill all the Palestinians" Israelis now than there were months ago.
Regarding Hamas reconstituting in the West Bank: The primary point that this will not really destroy "Hamas" is certainly true. Maybe in name, but there are certainly many other similar groups who will take over. There is already a different named group (Fatah controlled Palestinian Authority) in the West bank, that might not be as extreme as Hamas at this point, but is similar (e.g. provides pensions for those who martyr themselves against the Israelis) and can certainly go more extreme.
Regarding Palestinians with no where to go. Again, you also have to factor in Hamas's contribution to this. They are almost certainly hoarding food and gas for themselves (away from civilians) and also keeping civilians in areas / buildings.
This whole thing is very much a "Same Sh%t Different Day" situation.
Here is an interesting map (not directly related to the discussion above) that gives some interesting perspective to the situation. The "why" behind this is certainly a combination of "we don't want you here" and "we finally have somewhere to go" (Isreal founded in 1948).
yupididit said:
Toyman! said:
yupididit said:
Great, you destroyed the evil folks who took over our country and used us as shields to kill you. You only killed my whole family and smoked everything I know in life during the process. Thanks! All that will happen is solidifying the birth of Hamas 2.0 in 20 years.
I'm curious why you think Israelis' response should be different from the people in Gaza. Do you expect them to suffer their deaths without response? Should they trade deaths every couple of years? Or should Israel be overwhelming in their response in the hope of ending the killing?
The Jewish people have been persecuted and have suffered for millennia. From my perspective, they are being very restrained in their response to the constant killing of their people. More so than I would be in their place.
I'll answer your question once you answer the question I posed at the end of my post. I never stated what I THINK IDF's response should be.
Furthermore, I have no idea what your experience is or your education in regards to whats been happening, but they've been trading deaths every couple of years for decades.
If the American government was evil I would work toward getting rid of it. If the American government was using my children as human shields I would dedicate my energies toward blowing up the American government, not some other religion or innocent civilians.
The ball's back in your court.
GIRTHQUAKE said:
Article from the India Times on how Netanyahu helped fund HAMAS. .....
In case someone does not read the article, the title of which can easily be misinterpreted. The article talks to the deception that Hamas carried out that they were interested in building up Gaza, rather than fighting. The Israelis certainly supported them in that way, and clearly, I am sure, that support was miss-used (e.g. there is evidence that the Palestinian workers that were let in, did scouting for the attack).
In reply to Toyman! :
You did NOT answer the question but okay.
I think IDF's response should be a good use of HUMINT to deliberately dismantle Hamas. Mass bombing where you think they are is only racking up civ casualties. Hamas has Palestinians in a E36 M3ty position and Israel has the capability and experience to get what they want in a more precise and less mass destructive way.
yupididit said:
In reply to Toyman! :
You did NOT answer the question but okay.
I think IDF's response should be a good use of HUMINT to deliberately dismantle Hamas. Mass bombing where you think they are is only racking up civ casualties. Hamas has Palestinians in a E36 M3ty position and Israel has the capability and experience to get what they want in a more precise and less mass destructive way.
^This, all day every day this. What IDF is doing now is akin to trying to kill a cockroach with a sledghammer. Sorry for the analogy, but i think my meaning is clear.
EDITS:
An opinion piece from CNN (via MSN) that supports the premise their current offensive is the wrong path https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/opinion-there-s-a-smarter-way-to-eliminate-hamas/ar-AA1jcs8m?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=60e3aeb5f04b4eee9598e9a608eb1518&ei=66
Adding assessment from The War Zone, Gaza is bisected north/south with the IDF in control of the north: Israel-Gaza Situation Report: Northern Gaza 'Largely' Cut Off From South (thedrive.com)
