History in the Making: Russian Invasion

In reply to aircooled :

Developing closer ties with Russia has been the Western plan for quite awhile now.  For damn sure they would not have become so reliant on Russian oil and gas if they thought something like this was going to happen.   So I'm guessing the other European nation's response to that comment will be, "Yeah... WTF to you think we've been doing?  And now look where we are?"  Otherwise, I tend agree Le Pen will probably not push a pro-Russian agenda and will likely lean more on her anti-EU stance. The question is will the French people think they will be better off alone than being with the EU in these times.  Time will tell.

At some point post-WW2, France kind of decided they'd define themselves as being reflexively oppositional to the US, probably as something of a power play.  They've liked to play spoiler, many times for seemingly no good reason, and sometimes for very good reason.  I think Macron has tried to move policy away from that, but I'm sure the attitude is still very much alive.

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

It's been shown that Russia was running an influence campaign in favor of Brexit, I'd assume they were also intentionally stirring up anti-EU sentiment in France, too.  Of course, I'd also assume they were stirring up some of the hardline pro-EU sentiment that helped harm negotiations between Britain and the rest of the EU.  I can't remember the details, but I remember thinking that their demands for concessions to stay in the EU weren't really that extreme before the vote was called.

stuart in mn said:

02Pilot said:

Reports indicating the Russian Slava-class cruiser Moskva was hit by two missiles fired from near Odessa. Confirmed.

USA Today just reported the Moskva has sunk while under tow. https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/graphics/2022/02/24/ukraine-invasion-russia-attack-map-guide/6925181001/?csp=chromepush

More in depth reporting from The Drive: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-situation-report-russias-black-sea-flagship-sinks

Russia has confirmed that Moskva sunk.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MoskvaShip

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

Lol at the pronouns "was/were".

Where's my tux, this thing is writing itself...

"Putin on the fritz, sinkin' all his ships"

Of note Moskva (Russian for Moscow btw) WAS a significant source of air defense for the Black Sea fleet.  Unless they added anything more in their redeployment, it leaves 3 Frigates, which are primarily anti-submarine ships... oops!

This pretty much eliminates the possibility of Russia doing and amphibious assault on Odessa.  I believe the mayor of Odessa said recently something along the lines of: 

"If the Russians attack Odessa, the fish of the Black Sea will become fat off their bodies"

Oh, and BTW, the random fire that cause the the Moskva to be towed to port... well apparently there was also a random storm that caused it to sink.  Such randomness!:

The cruiser Moskva sank while being towed in a storm,-Russian Defense Ministry

And now for something completely different.

Let's go to Gregor with the weather.

The weather in Sevastopol today:

48°F

Clear

Wind: WNW 6 mph

Wind Gusts: 10 mph

Humidity: 89%

Cloud Cover: 10%

Visibility: 10 mi  <---------------------!!!!!

Cloud Ceiling: 6500 ft

"BANG"

I am sorry Gregor has been sacked.... lets go to sports...

(Monty Python Music)

Love the Snake Island retribution here.  The Moskova did indeed go F itself.  Fantastic.

Moskva is the biggest ship sunk in a battle since WW2! It's 130 ton bigger than General Belgrano.

aircooled said:

Of note Moskva (Russian for Moscow btw) WAS a significant source of air defense for the Black Sea fleet.  Unless they added anything more in their redeployment, it leaves 3 Frigates, which are primarily anti-submarine ships... oops!

This pretty much eliminates the possibility of Russia doing and amphibious assault on Odessa.  I believe the mayor of Odessa said recently something along the lines of: 

"If the Russians attack Odessa, the fish of the Black Sea will become fat off their bodies"

One thing I love about Slavic culture in general is how colorful the wordifying can be.  Reminds me of Grandma.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

One other massive problem with Le Pen is her very anti-immigrant position.  Putin has just made millions of refugees, and Le Pen is saying she does not want any of them.  Which puts the burdon to help them on everyone else.  Which is an amplified version of what has happened with Syrian regugees.  

Part of Brexit was the distrust of eastern European workers that came to Britian.  So there's already a base of people who fear or distrust anyone east of East Germany.   Millions of people have been forced out of their home, and thanks to people like LePen- they have very limited places to go.  

You can call her not pro-russia and more anti-eu, but it plays 100% into vladdy's hands of destabilizing the entire EU.

And we all have to understand, someone is going to pay for the rebuild, and it's not likely going to be putput.

Zelensky: Say it.

Putin: You sunk my battleship.

In reply to j_tso :

aircooled said:

This pretty much eliminates the possibility of Russia doing and amphibious assault on Odessa.  I believe the mayor of Odessa said recently something along the lines of: 

"If the Russians attack Odessa, the fish of the Black Sea will become fat off their bodies"

I saw a Ukrainian Navy commander on the news this morning, who said something to the effect of "our fish will grow larger" while holding up his hands in the classic "the fish was this big" pose.  I also saw that sales of those stamps with the guy giving the finger to the ship were selling like hotcakes.

In reply to eastsideTim :

It has been argued Russia has been behind most of the "populist" movements in various countries as it helps to sew division among the populations and therefore divisions between those nations and each other.  One can also argue the efforts have been wildly successful. In a way, it makes all of this seem rather odd. All Putin had to do was be patient and there was a distinct possibility the tide would continue to shift in his direction.  I've read some speculation he may have some brewing illness that accelerated his plans so that he would be known as the Russian leader who brought glory back to Russia and not whoever his successor may be. 

Something, something... tired of being witness to historical events... something, something... 

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

If one looks at the extensive literature on Soviet espionage and political operations, what you find is that they tended not to try to create movements, but to fund and support those that challenged the status quo. Current Russian approaches are likely to be similar. In other words, populism and other upstart political movements in the West were useful to Russia because they threatened the existing political and economic structure, and were thus worth supporting in some form, but they are unlikely to be Russian creations.

In reply to 02Pilot :

"Behind" was a poor choice of words.  "Support" or "encourage" or "stoke" (the fire...) would be more accurate.  But otherwise I agree. 

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

I have noticed as of late, like last 5 years,  that all authoritarian regimes rely heavily on adjectives. Why is that?

Edit and on a separate note: As someone who accidentally finished a literature degree before switching to engineering, WTF is with Russian Literature? There is nothing more depressing than what their authors write. As a nation I would have sunk into alcoholism if forced to endure their history/culture. There is literally no joy in their history; just endless enduring. 

Trying to picture being the first Russian tourist to travel to Ukraine after May 9, 2022 to celebrate the liberation parade with their welcoming comrades. Probably going to be buried under the flowers.

NOHOME said:

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

Edit and on a separate note: As someone who accidentally finished a literature degree before switching to engineering, WTF is with Russian Literature? There is nothing more depressing than what their authors write. As a nation I would have sunk into alcoholism if forced to endure their history/culture. There is literally no joy in their history; just endless enduring.

Hands down, my favorite Soviet/Russian saying - in response to being greeted with "How are you?" - is "Not as good as yesterday, but definitely better than tomorrow."

NOHOME said:

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

WTF is with Russian Literature? There is nothing more depressing than what their authors write. As a nation I would have sunk into alcoholism if forced to endure their history/culture. There is literally no joy in their history; just endless enduring.

Before harder drugs began to take their toll, alcoholism was largely why Russian lifespans averaged out kinda low.  Heck, it's probably what killed Stalin.