History in the Making: Russian Invasion

93EXCivic said:

In reply to aircooled :

I am not going to lie. I do slightly understand some of Putin's points. We have put nuclear weapons in a number of countries in Europe basically taking advantage of a loophole in one of the nuclear treaties. What are those weapons for if not for Russia?

Of course they're for Russia, other countries don't want to be bullied by them.

In reply to aircooled :

trust me, I'd be patio material faster than you could blink. Let's just say we are weaker internationally and internally than we have been in a long time and it shows. 

A theory at work from a tin hat wearing friend is that this is a ploy to enrage the west that encites physical retribution allowing Russia to sanction a worldwide cyber attack that shuts down economic, military and government creating worldwide pandemonium. 

bobzilla said:

In reply to aircooled :

trust me, I'd be patio material faster than you could blink. Let's just say we are weaker internationally and internally than we have been in a long time and it shows. 

OK, no, I think I get it.

The recent pullout of Afhghanistan was, let say, less then ideal, and likely showed some weakness, or lack of willingness because of how it was done. Thus, threats of action might be less beleivable.  To be clear, the decision to pull out, is not on one "group", but how it was done made it worse (making the results there worse as well as outside persepective).  Nuff said?

To soften that a bit, I don't think there has been any implications of actual US involvement.  From my persepective, that seems like a good thing (big can of worms).

And other things, as you imply, not something we can not discuss.  I get it.  Thanks.  How much affect it has? Hard to say, but I suspect some (if that is the image that is out there).

In reply to bobzilla :

International sanctions don't matter much to a nation that doesn't care about it's people, and especially so against someone whom has had enough stripped away already that they know how they'll be hurt. Russia has floated for years taking the Rubel off the world markets regardless of the damage that could be done; one of the "nice" end results of a nation that for years, would have towns dissappear from famine or disease and would (or perhaps, could) only react with a shrug. Brutality like that echoes- much like the million+ Americans dead from COVID and it's rampant misinformation, and lack of action.

Seems to be (shocking I know) a lot of disinformation in the media over there. Poland's borders are open to Ukrainian people fleeing. Waiving visas. Only a passport is needed. 

Link to proof in Ukrainian 

Link to proof in English

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

In a way it does play to their interests, like an abusive relationship.  "Look how much they are hurting you!"

The bbc live thread has been good. 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60454795

Fueled by Caffeine said:

The bbc live thread has been good. 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60454795

I listen to BBC everyday , probably also need to listen to DW.com which is German TV

Steve_Jones said:

03Panther said:

tuna55 said:

We can't clutter up the thread feeding the trolls  

I agree there 100%!!!

It's funny how the "trolls" are only certain usernames on this board. The bias is unbelievably hypocritical. If people even assume you lean one way, you're a troll. 

Which "way" do you lean in this? Pro war and Pro Peace? Seriously, how are their "two sides"? A country has wholly militarily invaded another sovereign country, and that's a fact.

I have also personally deleted a post and warned a poster about a political meme that was denigrating the "side" you claim is biased against on this board. The moderation team takes "no politics" seriously. If you think that the board owners not allowing vaccine disinformation (that was proven to be spread by Russian sources just so we're clear on sides) is "political" (especially when the previous Administration started Operation Warp Speed and the former POTUS is fully vaccinated, boosted, and has implored his followers to do the same) than you need some more education.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

In reply to bobzilla :

International sanctions don't matter much to a nation that doesn't care about it's people...

Not to talk for Bob (sorry Bob), but I "think" he might be, rather than sanctions, implying the potential use of actual action. As an example the big Chess Move talked about earlier in this thread, would be to put US troops in Ukraine as a trip wire.  That of course is a very bold move, but maybe (?) something that an aggressive strongman like Putin, might respect (as in not push).

As mentioned previously, sometimes aggression can (or must) be used to stop aggression.  Not saying this is the ideal solution here, but it potentially could have been, if we wanted to take that risk, which the west (and NATO) pretty clearly do not want to.

To get back to the original point about WWII parallels (again, NOT implying start of WWIII !), that lack of spine for conflict by the western powers is exactly what Hitler took advantage of.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

That's EXACTLY it, and is why this Myth of NATO/ The West "Not having power" or "Taking too long" doesn't hold. Cutting Russia off the instant any action begins or was being taken against the Ukraine would be a zero-sum game, because at that point Putin just might as well show the hand he's got and try to take as much as possible- the sunk-cost fallacy is still a fallacy, but everyone still falls for it.

Against an enemy like this- wether a fascist whom refuses to even see you as a human or apart of a nation, or an Imperial whom looks at territory like checking off a shopping list- there really isn't any "reasoning" to them, economic or otherwise. It's why to extremists, force is the only thing they will respect.

clutchsmoke said:

Seems to be (shocking I know) a lot of disinformation in the media over there. Poland's borders are open to Ukrainian people fleeing. Waiving visas. Only a passport is needed. 

Link to proof in Ukrainian 

Link to proof in English

 

 

 

That's good,

 I wonder what percentage of the population has a passport? 
Not a leading question here, I'm just always shocked at how many people I've crossed paths with over the years that didn't have one even if I live within a few hours drive of an international boarder.

In reply to aircooled :

I'd personally, support that. But it's a big-dick move and frankly, after pulling out of Afghanistan (regardless of how it was left) I also fully understand and relate to why they would not want to. NOW I think we could, since innocent Ukrainians are being killed and social media is full of it (Woo hoo Manufactured Consent) but prior it would be seen as very hypocritical and a return to "World Police" moniker.

The other issue is, NATO was always concieved as a defensive pact against Russian threat- never an offensive one, it's just not in the charter. To even imply NATO is changing that course is hella thorny, since one could easily proclaim that NATOs presence in Ukraine is trying to sway them into it's arms and give them more options against Russia. I know I keep going in circles about "This is how dictators THINK and want you to ACT", but doing so could also be easily warped into Fait Accompli.

Dude, make those paralells. Putin turned LGBT+ into public enemy #1 in Russia.

I'm not saying the US needs to be there doing anything. I AM saying that we are politically weak in the international stage and fractured internally. This gives players like Putin a small crack in the wall to pick at and make worse. 
 

what's the solution? No idea. But we aren't getting there anytime quick. 

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) said:

slefain said:

Somewhere in Ukraine my elderly uncle is trying to GTFO. He's always managed to extract himself from E36 M3storms, so I hope he got somewhere safe. I had already accepted I'd never see him again, but dude was still part of the family and I have a few good memories of him. Hope he pulls this one off.

If you've got contact info, I've got a spare bedroom. 

If this transpires I am will happily send some $$$ to help . . .

bobzilla said:

I'm not saying the US needs to be there doing anything. I AM saying that we are politically weak in the international stage and fractured internally. This gives players like Putin a small crack in the wall to pick at and make worse. 
 

what's the solution? No idea. But we aren't getting there anytime quick. 

I don't normally wade into these waters but I agree on this clarification.  We HAVE to get back to a point where we have more stability as a nation and that in turn translates to more stable positions on the world stage.  We (The US) are, like it or not, the light in the darkness of authoritarian rulers which seem to be gaining more and more traction on the world stage.  While this doesn't mean we need to be the world's policeman it does mean out actions as a nation have meaning on thw world stage.

I'm truly torn on the US and Nato's actions in the situation.  It is a real tragedy for Europe and the world unfolding in front of our eyes.  I still hold out hope for aome kind of resolution that isn't a new Iron Curtain but am losing faith in that hypothesis by the moment.

I didn't want to have to say this, but IBTL

bobzilla said:

I'm not saying the US needs to be there doing anything. I AM saying that we are politically weak in the international stage and fractured internally. This gives players like Putin a small crack in the wall to pick at and make worse. 
 

what's the solution? No idea. But we aren't getting there anytime quick. 

And there is a mountain of evidence that Putin/Russia is largely responsible for those cracks in the first place.

Javelin said:

If you think that the board owners not allowing vaccine disinformation (that was proven to be spread by Russian sources just so we're clear on sides) is "political" (especially when the previous Administration started Operation Warp Speed and the former POTUS is fully vaccinated, boosted, and has implored his followers to do the same) than you need some more education.

Jav, I probably mostly agree with you, but this post isn't helpful, either. Right now, this thread is a lifeline in a very uncertain time, and posts like this invite a political response that will get the thing shut down. I say this knowing you are a mod and are using your best judgement, but I'd urge you to refrain from this type of response.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

Javelin said:

If you think that the board owners not allowing vaccine disinformation (that was proven to be spread by Russian sources just so we're clear on sides) is "political" (especially when the previous Administration started Operation Warp Speed and the former POTUS is fully vaccinated, boosted, and has implored his followers to do the same) than you need some more education.

Jav, I probably mostly agree with you, but this post isn't helpful, either. Right now, this thread is a lifeline in a very uncertain time, and posts like this invite a political response that will get the thing shut down. I say this knowing you are a mod and are using your best judgement, but I'd urge you to refrain from this type of response.

You're right, and I apologize. I am trying to keep this thread open and am tired of hearing complaints about bias and picked an example that was irrelevant to this discussion and inflammatory.

Javelin said:

You're right, and I apologize. I am trying to keep this thread open and am tired of hearing complaints about bias and picked an example that was irrelevant to this discussion and inflammatory.

All good, man. It's a stressful time and we're all doing our best.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Steve, you're trolling. I don't care why, I don't know you or your beliefs. Go back and read what you wrote, the tone and tenor compared with basically everyone else. It's all wrong. It's not about sides, it's about being blatantly and uselessly political. Please stop posting here. We're all struggling to figure this out, and usefully collaborating every reasonable source that we can find as a community, and discussing (quite rationally and productively) the situation as best we can. You are not adding to that here. Please do not get this thread locked. Your behavior here is doing no good for anyone.