A good discussion about some larger global concepts, and they touch upon the Ukraine conflict around 30 minutes in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvFtyDy_Bt0
volvoclearinghouse said:A good discussion about some larger global concepts, and they touch upon the Ukraine conflict around 30 minutes in.
It's Miersheimer (who blames Russia's invasion of Ukraine on the west) and Jeffrey Sachs (another Russia apologist) discussing conspiracy theories. Skip to a minute in to watch Sachs say that Cheney, Harris, Biden, etc. all belong to a single Deep State party.
The hosts themselves are all Silicone Valley tech investors/Billionaires.
Sachs' recent speech was so full of Russian propaganda that The Hill (!) did a section by section fact check: https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4727046-from-economist-to-kremlin-mouthpiece-the-troubling-transformation-of-jeffrey-sachs/
Here is a satellite shot of the ammo depot that was hit (prior to being hit of course). As you can see, this place is huge. I do wonder how they managed to get the sympathetic explosions that seemed to blow up a large amount of it (it's kind of the point of how these are laid out to avoid that). Most of the lighter area seems to have been destroyed (and parts of the other areas).
In reply to CrustyRedXpress :
This area seems like it falls right into 02 expertise / knowledge. I am not familier with any of these guys. 02?
One little snippet, regarding NATO expansion eastward, from a quick view of The Hill article, brought up something I know 02 has mentioned. Does this jive with your understanding of the situation 02? I could certainly see how Putin could ignore dates / realities (he's certainly done it before!) to make this sound different than it appears below.:
The U.S. proposal was a united Germany, in NATO, with reduced military potential, and that no nuclear weapons or their carriers would be deployed in the former East Germany. This was eventually included in the treaty signed on September 12, 1990. Gorbachev would later confirm in his memoirs that both Germany and the U.S. exceeded their obligations.
As for the other states of the Warsaw Pact, there was were no discussions about NATO expanding to them in 1990, because the Warsaw Pact still existed and was not formally dissolved until July 1991.
In reply to aircooled :
A) American and NATO depots are arranged to prevent cascade (and the ammo itself has to meet certain requirements in "cook off" tests to prevent it) is Russia meeting those standards?
B) we've seen that Ukraine likes to rain thermite
In reply to aircooled :
I haven't watched the video, but I'll give a quick run-down on my perspective on Sachs and Mearsheimer. I've never had much use for Sachs - he's a publicity hound who likes to give expensive talks in front of groups of people with money (like this one). Every time I've read or heard him, I've felt like he painted with a very broad brush. Mearsheimer, on the other hand, is a solid academic - his work is well-researched and thorough. Some do not agree with his analysis, but it's hard to fault his evidence. I've read a number of his books and find his arguments generally persuasive.
I have no doubt that discussions were had between US and Russian officials circa 1992 in which statements suggesting that NATO would not expand into Eastern Europe were made. But without something in writing, that means nothing.
Now, as to the fact-check in The Hill. There are a few points that deserve note: the quotes from Sachs are cherry-picked, but that's to be expected in a fact-checking piece. The comments on them, however, ignore relevant elements of analysis, for example in this passage:
Russian propaganda: The West has always wanted to destroy Russia
Jeffrey Sachs: “It all started 170 years ago, when Britain wanted to surround the Russian Empire and deprive it of its status as a great power in the Black Sea region and prevent it from having access to the Black Sea, and this policy was continued by Brzezinski.”
Fact-check: The Crimean War was started by the Russian Empire because of its adventurous dream of capturing the Bosporus and the Dardanelles. To this end, Russia even at one point sought to enter into an alliance with Great Britain. But when the Russian Empire invaded Moldova, it started a war against the Ottoman Empire and, by extension, its allies France and Britain.
Moreover, the victors in this war did not claim any of the Russian Empire’s ports on the Black Sea. They returned all the cities captured in Crimea to the tsar. This would be a strange way to “surround” the Russian Empire and limit its influence in the Black Sea region. In addition, no one planned to strengthen the Ottoman Empire at Russia’s expense.
Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security advisor to U.S. President Jimmy Carter, in his books “The Grand Chessboard” and “A Strategic View: America and the Global Crisis,” promoted a different strategy for Russia by involving it in global economic cooperation.
British decision-making in the Crimean War was predicated on the idea of balance of power. Britian acted as an offshore balancer in Europe, selectively lending support to weaker powers long enough to ensure that no state established hegemony. In supporting the Ottoman Empire, Britain achieved its aim of containing Russia and denying it the vital Straits, which would have threatened access to India via the eastern Mediterranean. Once Russia was defeated, there was no reason for Britain to hold territory or even strengthen the Ottoman Empire; it simply pulled back, the situation having been stabilized.
Sachs doesn't get it quite right, and the fact-checker overstates how wrong he got it. But the game is up when we discover the identity of our purportedly unbiased fact-checker: Oleg Dunda is a member of Ukraine’s parliament.
In reply to 02Pilot :
In the video, Sachs gives Mearsheimer lots of credit, and it's clear that the two men seem to respect each other. Mearsheimer makes it very clear his points are not necessarily his opinions, or what he wants, but as accurate a depiction as he can reasonably determine. I too thought Mearsheimer seemed more credible than Sachs; his point near the end that the United States is in an "iron cage" from an international stand point was particularly poignant.
I don't think Sachs is a Russian sympathizer, rather he seems more of an idealist who is extremely frightened of all the major nuclear-weapons-possessing nations in the world bickering with each other. As well he might be.
As for the venue, the All In Podcast is indeed a group of Si Valley tech billionaires. It's also one of the most popular podcasts on the planet right now, so they clearly have some sway with their opinions.
Looks like we may have another ammo depot going up.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/FmePLZxl56
These are all separate events in the last two days
1- Toropets, Tver Oblast, Russia 56°30'11.0"N 31°42'57.2"E
2- Tikhoretsky District, Krasnodar Krai, Russia, 45°53'17.5"N 40°02'35.2"E This one has to count as ammo storage and an airfield.
3- Toropetsky District, Tver Oblast, Russia 56°21'33.6"N 31°38'53.1"E
Looking at that 2nd one I would be embarrassed as hell to work there. They can't even park the planes straight. No haz gens or anything.
Looks like there may be an agreement in the works?
US and UK may "tacitly" allow Ukraine to strike Storm Shadow at Russia, — The Times
The parties prepared two versions of the final statements and, due to unresolved details, announced the one that discussed further discussions regarding permission for long-range strikes by Ukraine.
The publication claims that permission to strike Russia with Storm Shadow missiles may be approved next week and will be non-public, so as not to give Russia additional warning about a possible attack.
Completely unrelated I am sure (!), but Ukraine did just release some info on a new jet powered drone they developed... this is a color of smoke that would make one nervous:
This seems like a bad idea. They would not target the actual reactor components, just the transmission components, but so far, Russian missiles have not exactly had perfect accuracy. (Map of plant location is obviously a bit old Russian captured territory wise).
According to Ukrainian intelligence, the Kremlin is preparing strikes on Ukrainian nuclear power facilities on the eve of winter. In particular, on open switchgear of nuclear power plants and transmission substations, which are critical for the safe operation of nuclear power.
The destruction of these facilities creates a high risk of a nuclear incident that will have global consequences. The Ukrainian special services have already passed on the relevant information to their partners. The IAEA has also been informed.
Question:
With Ukraine's newfound and home-brewed ability to take out targets deep in Russia, is Russia not risking a Tit-for-Tat when bombing humanitarian infrastructure like power plants? Even more troublesome for the Russians since spare parts might not be readily available due to sanctions and lack of manpower to install the bits.
I hear that it gets cold in Moscow. So far, the residents of Moscow seem to remain relatively ignorant of what is going on in Ukraine. If they were to suddenly be left freezing in their apartments cause their central heating plant was blowed-up, with mo part or people to repair the system, I suspect that Muscovites might start to figure out that the Special Military Operation is more than a minor inconvenience.
In reply to NOHOME :
One can only hope. Time to put the lights out in Russia.
While I understand the thoughts above, targeting civilian infrastructure on either side is wrong.
Stampie said:While I understand the thoughts above, targeting civilian infrastructure on either side is wrong.
Not a time to turn the other cheek here. Freezing russians are just a lever to be pulled in war. Russia has declared and demonstrated that it will reduce Ukraine to rubble. Ukraine just wants the russians to go home. Ball is in the russian court. Reminds me of some stuff that went on between April 19, 1775 – September 3, 1783.
I will sneak this in here about "the other thing". (Not wanting to inflame that other thread) This is supposed to be internal, so likely more accurate than released info. Gives you some ideas of how effective the "strikes"were (not without collateral damage of course).
An internal Hezbollah document from the office of the head of the organization's military intelligence division was leaked.
Hezbollah reports 879 deaths as a result of the infiltration and explosion of its internal communication network.
Of these - 131 Iranians, 79 Yemenis, of which 291 senior officials were killed.
As a result of the explosions, 509 of them were blinded, the vast majority of them (491 completely blind) and 602 were seriously injured, of which 84 were senior citizens.
Additional injuries, of which 1735 were damaged in their reproductive organs, of which 905 were irreversibly damaged.
The number of non-involved casualties is 40, of which 39 are dead and one is seriously or seriously injured.
Stampie said:While I understand the thoughts above, targeting civilian infrastructure on either side is wrong.
Power plants supporting military production, petroleum refining, manufacturing, etc., are valid targets of war (which this is).
If Ukraine was targeting apartment blocks, like the russians are doing, i would be more in agreement with you.
In reply to Flynlow :
Not necessarily arguing with you here, but merely pointing out that there's not too much line between that and "the civilians are legitimate targets since they are the workers who keep making the munitions"
That case was certainly made in times past. And I also wonder what to think about that since states now do a total warfare thing instead of just having a set of dedicated soldiers like in the olden days.
02Pilot said:Sachs doesn't get it quite right, and the fact-checker overstates how wrong he got it. But the game is up when we discover the identity of our purportedly unbiased fact-checker: Oleg Dunda is a member of Ukraine’s parliament.
Friend, if you're surprised that Ukraines are involved in fact checking Russian misinformation online, just wait till you hear what is happening in Kursk =)
Kidding...and good catch on the attribution. Still, important to note that Sachs has appeared repeatedly on state-sponsored domestic Russian propaganda networks, and has received significan push back from other academics regarding his pro-Russian stance. Do I think he's an agent of Russia? Of course not. But there is no doubt he is saying things that Putin loves to hear.
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Agree with Stampie that civilian infrastructure must remain off limits. If Ukraine keeps getting better and better at hitting targets with domestically produced drones, is there still a need for Storm Shadows?
Flynlow said:Stampie said:While I understand the thoughts above, targeting civilian infrastructure on either side is wrong.
Power plants supporting military production, petroleum refining, manufacturing, etc., are valid targets of war (which this is).
If Ukraine was targeting apartment blocks, like the russians are doing, i would be more in agreement with you.
The substation feeding a military base is. A power plant that feeds Moscow isn't.
If Russia were able to destroy ONLY military targets, would they?
I don't think so either.
For all the sufferings and indignities Russia has brought upon itself, this may hurt the most.
Only half joking. They take their chess very seriously, and have since the Cold War: Fischer-Spassky in Iceland, Karpov-Korchnoi in the Philippines, Karpov-Kasparov in several locations in the 1980s.
Stampie said:Flynlow said:Stampie said:While I understand the thoughts above, targeting civilian infrastructure on either side is wrong.
Power plants supporting military production, petroleum refining, manufacturing, etc., are valid targets of war (which this is).
If Ukraine was targeting apartment blocks, like the russians are doing, i would be more in agreement with you.
The substation feeding a military base is. A power plant that feeds Moscow isn't.
I respect your opinion without agreeing with it. Any further down this rabbit hole is probably unproductive.
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