Home buying questions--inspections and attorneys

A couple of quick questions:
What does the real estate attorney do for the buyer?
Does it matter if it is a real estate specific lawyer, or can any practicing attorney do the same thing?
For the inspection, after reading tunas posts I've decided to treat it like a carfax: it might tell me that there is something wrong, but it can miss things as well. With that in mind, I'll be doing my own inspection. Is there a list of things to do for this? So far I'm going to be checking out every window, every faucet, door lock, toilet, cabinet door, jumping to look for any "give" in the floor, and shining a light looking at all the insulation. But I really don't know what I'm looking for beyond that. Any advice?

I would highly suggest you do not do your own home inspection. Having just gone through one myself for the first time two days ago, I've gotta say there was a bunch of little E36 M3 here and there I would never have caught on my own. I don't care how much you might know, these guys are pros and look for these types of things all day every day and will actually teach you a lot along the way. The inspection is certainly no guarantee, but it's much better than trying to DIY it, imho.

Also, how is the seller going to react trying to negotiate based off of your unprofessional opinion on the condition?

And I take it you're under contract on a place? Congrats! I know you have been looking for a while now.

To be clear, I am having a pro do an inspection. But I'm also doing my own at the same time.

This is state specific, I did not need a lawyer in TN, we had title companies that did that stuff. As far as inspection if you don't know what to look for, how to check what to check ect., pay the money, you will appreciate it. Some states and lenders require a licensed inspection, some states and lenders don't.

I don't need a carfax because I have been trained on how to inspect cars working at carmax for paint work, frame damage and such. Other than an odometer discrepancy carfax won't help me. Have you been trained to where only the title issues are what you are missing on a house inspection? If not find someone who does and pay the money. I have done it both ways and unexpected things come up.

If there is an option or something I don't know, I would pay the $500 for the inspection. Well worth it.

In reply to mtn:

Oh okay, that makes a lot more sense!

I am an inspector. I don't even do inspections on my own property- I want another set of eyes.

Find out who the inspector is in your area who is nicknamed "The Deal Killer" in your area. That's the guy you want, and he's the guy the Realtors will be hesitant to refer.

Also, look for an ASHI Certified Inspector (as opposed to an ASHI Inspector, or Associate). Certified inspectors have passed national exams, and competed at least 250 paid inspections that meet the standards. That's a LOT of experience that you do not have.

Then, don't sweat it. It's pretty easy to over think this stuff. Just like a used car that might need something after purchase, houses sometimes need stuff. Even Tuna's example (which is pretty bad) is something he will recover from.

All attorneys can close a real estate transaction. But you want one who specializes in real estate transactions. An error on the part of the attorney is significantly worse than an error in the part of the home inspector.

BTW, my training to become an inspector was over 100 hours of classroom training, plus 27 different quizzes and a final exam. Even though I had 39 years of construction experience.

Don't underestimate what these guys do.

In reply to mtn:

I've never used an attorney buying property in IL(or MS for that matter). Unless there's something iffy about the deal, you have a friend/family member who is an attorney and willing to help you out, or just want it for your own peace of mind, I wouldn't spend the money for one.

However, unless your inspector really knows their stuff - and it might be good to know their background/expertise ahead of time - I would consider having a separate HVAC inspection. That can be a pretty singularly expensive repair if any lurking problems are missed.

I don't know how to choose a good one but SVreX's response seems spot on. The last time I bought a house, I think the inspector must've just drove by the house, saw it standing, & checked everything off as being OK. On the other hand, I sold another house yesterday. The buyer's inspector was very nit picky. Among other things, he noted that the HVAC was sorta old but functioning as it should. On the purchaser's walk thru on Thursday, they discovered that the AC wasn't working (it was OK last week). If it had lasted 1 more day it would have been on the buyer to fix it. I had to do a last minute installation of the fan to sell the house.

I guess the point of all this is, that even with a good inspection, E36 M3 happens. As a buyer, do that last minute pre-purchase walkthru.

Also write your offer to be contingent on satisfactory home inspection.
This will then give you another "out" if you start to not like the deal for any reason.
You may discover that the neighbor is a problem but kill the deal because there is one tile broken in the bathroom.

When I lived in Toledo, OH I used "the deal killer" in one purchase cycle and did in fact kill one deal. Though he was a brother in law of a buddy he does offer services to the public on a limited basis as a part time job.
His full time job is that he is a Commercial Building Inspector for The City of Toledo!
He preferred to only inspect houses outside the city limits and both that he looked at for me were in the suburbs.

Those are good points.

FYI, most national inspection standards would say it is a VISUAL inspection only, of READILY ACCESSIBLE systems and components, using STANDARD OPERATING controls, at the TIME OF the inspection.

That means, there are a lot of exclusions. A home inspector is required to tell the age of a system and the expected lifespan, but they are NOT required to inspect things like heat exchangers, test the temperature output, etc. And they CAN'T tell you if it is about to fail. That means, they turn on the thermostat, and tell you if it starts. If the gas or electric is off, they don't turn it on. They will then recommend further evaluation by a licensed contractor in the relevant field.

So, yeah, an HVAC inspection (along with others) is a good idea.

Most inspectors provide a customer service that is above the standards of practice. But it is wise to read BOTH their pre-inspection agreement (which says they don't inspect playsets, pools, mold, etc.), but also READ the Standard of Practice they will be adhering to (ASHI, NACHI, etc.).

JohnRW1621 wrote: When I lived in Toledo, OH I used "the deal killer" in one purchase cycle and did in fact kill one deal. Though he was a brother in law of a buddy he does offer services to the public on a limited basis as a part time job. His full time job is that he is a Commercial Building Inspector for The City of Toledo! He preferred to only inspect houses outside the city limits and both that he looked at for me were in the suburbs.

He is probably required to avoid doing inspections in the city limits. It would be a conflict of interest with his real job.

Buying a house? I would always have an inspector - selling a house has become a 2 step negotiation process compared to the old days.

1. Buyer comes in and looks everything over and finally makes an offer you accept. His offer is based upon the location and what kind of shape the house is in.

2. Inspector comes in and finds potential problems and either asks you to reduce the price further to cover the costs or fix the problem before the closing. I had an odd electrical problem on my first house and due to my own safety concerns and reminder of the problem after it was pointed out I agreed to drop the price to what the electrical contractor estimated it would cost to fix. I also fixed a crack in the foundation using one of the epoxy guys.

3. Inspector tells us to change out or reduce the price of the 1950 era large picture window because he saw some moisture between the two panes of glass - I told him it was minor and that I wasn't dropping the price nor changing it. They bought the house anyway.

You negotiate a price and then you get to negotiate the price again given issues the inspector finds - I think the inspector is worth every penny.

Once again everyone--I am absolutely getting an inspector. Always was. But the same as I look over a car even after I have a carfax, or even a pre-inspection at a mechanic, I intend to do an inspection myself. Was just looking for a list of things to check out.

Here's the way I look at it. This is my biggest purchase, and I want someone on my side should something go wrong. I'll always have an attorney whether required or not. You show up to close and there is a stack of legal docs a foot tall that you need to sign. I felt a lot better having an advocate (not someone who was trying to close the deal). Everyone else at the table, including your realtor, doesn't get paid until you sign and close. They are all going to tell you everything you sign is no big deal. But they all have words and you are agreeing to all of it when you sign.

Do you think that an "attorney" is good enough, or do I need someone who specializes in real estate?

Never mind. That was probably a dumb question.

Be glad you're not buying out here on the westcoast of Canada.

The market is so crazy, houses are selling in less than a day with no subjects and no inspection.

That being said, my home inspector was pretty useless and didn't tell me anything I couldn't see for myself.

I get it though, they can't open walls or dig holes. My guy couldn't tell the difference between aluminum wire and copper. He also doesn't know what an overloaded panel looks like.

I wouldn't bother with a home inspection again unless the lender demanded it.

mtn wrote: Do you think that an "attorney" is good enough, or do I need someone who specializes in real estate? Never mind. That was probably a dumb question.

Not dumb. For a simple house, I think any attorney could do it. It's just basic contract law and having someone read all that crap and tell you it's ok and what you are signing. Multi-unit or commercial I would want someone specific.

SVreX wrote: BTW, my training to become an inspector was over 100 hours of classroom training, plus 27 different quizzes and a final exam. Even though I had 39 years of construction experience. Don't underestimate what these guys do.

around here 99% of them are morons who either miss everything or cite things that are correct.

on every house we prep for sale i leave one blatant thing for the inspector to catch so they can feel good about themselves and have one thing to report. they never catch it, and always cite something that is done to code. the last one we left the relief tube for the hot water tank off completely and the only thing on his report was that there were 2 wires going to a single breaker in the panel. a breaker which had labeled right on it that it was designed for a 2 wire install. even has 2 little pictures of wires on it.

pick your inspector carefully.

In reply to patgizz:

I agree many aren't worth much. That's why I gave a few guidelines for picking a good one.

99% sounds like a bit of an exaggeration.

Home Inspectors are not Code Inspectors. It is impossible for a Home Inspector to inspect a property for compliance to the code, and completely inappropriate.

maybe an exaggeration but i bet it's more than 80%. i just get tired of dealing with inspections that are wrong by people who have no idea what they're looking for. 2 different people had one house inspected by different guys. one guy had a 58 item report including wet basement, suggesting waterproofing, on a slab home. the other just had the 2 wires/one breaker thing(on a square d breaker made for 2 wires). my mom is AHIT certified, and she still takes me into any house she is looking to buy and i see things she misses.

I don't think you need a real estate only lawyer. Mine was a family friend and he's just kind of a general lawyer. FWIW it was worth it to have him because the people I bought from were flaky (they didn't show up for the closing because they were still moving out) and when I thought the deal was going to fall through because of that, he was able to get through to their lawyer to light a fire under their ass, and also tell me what my options were if they continued on the rickety path they were following. It all ended up fine but it was pretty stressful. And it all happened, I think, because they didn't want to pay for an extra day of a U-Haul truck.

As far as the inspection goes, I'll share what happened to me and you can use it or ignore it. My inspector found some stuff (leaking p traps under sinks, doors that didn't close, garbage disposal drain routed wrong, breaker for the AC wrong) and the homeowner's husband (note: not homeowner, she wasn't there) agreed to fix what he found. There was some other stuff that he didn't agree to fix (cement slab patio that sunk on one end) but I wasn't really expecting it to be fixed. Then a week later the actual homeowner called me up and said that she didn't agree to that stuff and since she's the homeowner and her husband is not, any agreement we had doesn't count. Now I will note here that when my offer was accepted, it was the husband that accepted it (they were selling by owner). So, fine, whatever, after some back and forth we agree on cash at closing instead of them doing the work. And they told me that if it can't be worked out that way they would give me a check for $300. And then they didn't show up for the closing, and they had not notified their lawyer about this (luckily my lawyer had a signed agreement from them) and ultimately the $300 was there, but it was rolled into closing costs or whatever. So it's not like I actually got $300 separately. And I had to fix all that stuff myself, which ultimately was probably good because they seem like they were pretty bad at maintenance. Except for the disposal hose, they fixed that.

slowride wrote: I don't think you need a real estate only lawyer. Mine was a family friend and he's just kind of a general lawyer. FWIW it was worth it to have him because the people I bought from were flaky (they didn't show up for the closing because they were still moving out) and when I thought the deal was going to fall through because of that, he was able to get through to their lawyer to light a fire under their ass, and also tell me what my options were if they continued on the rickety path they were following. It all ended up fine but it was pretty stressful. And it all happened, I think, because they didn't want to pay for an extra day of a U-Haul truck. As far as the inspection goes, I'll share what happened to me and you can use it or ignore it. My inspector found some stuff (leaking p traps under sinks, doors that didn't close, garbage disposal drain routed wrong, breaker for the AC wrong) and the homeowner's husband (note: not homeowner, she wasn't there) agreed to fix what he found. There was some other stuff that he didn't agree to fix (cement slab patio that sunk on one end) but I wasn't really expecting it to be fixed. Then a week later the actual homeowner called me up and said that she didn't agree to that stuff and since she's the homeowner and her husband is not, any agreement we had doesn't count. Now I will note here that when my offer was accepted, it was the husband that accepted it (they were selling by owner). So, fine, whatever, after some back and forth we agree on cash at closing instead of them doing the work. And they told me that if it can't be worked out that way they would give me a check for $300. And then they didn't show up for the closing, and they had not notified their lawyer about this (luckily my lawyer had a signed agreement from them) and ultimately the $300 was there, but it was rolled into closing costs or whatever. So it's not like I actually got $300 separately. And I had to fix all that stuff myself, which ultimately was probably good because they seem like they were pretty bad at maintenance. Except for the disposal hose, they fixed that.

Who was your inspector?

I would prefer a lawyer who specializes in real estate (or the abstract examiner the local title company uses) over someone who does not do a healthy amount of R.E. work in your area, just because I want the best title examination possible. Someone who is conversant in an area's usual, basic chains of title is going to have more time to spare to look for oddities. Title problems are rare, but can screw you up and cost you money years later when you go to sell. Sure, title insurance covers damages, but once you are at that point, you are going to be less than happy. Get it right and tight going in.

Margie