Home electrical question

The circuit that I have my TV etc plugged into has been having a problem recently. I have everything plugged into a surge protector that has a power light on it. Sometimes when I would turn on the TV, that light would flicker a bunch and then eventually go solid, after which everything plugged into the surge protector would work. More recently I would notice lights on other outlets in the circuit would flash when I was trying to turn on the TV.

The circuit is like this: 15 amp duplex breaker in the box. Wires go to an outlet in the room, and then there are 2 more sets of wires that go to other outlets. 1 set goes to one outlet, and another set goes to 2 outlets. I had the breaker plugged into the outlet at the end of the single run (not the outlet with all the wires going to it). When I pulled the outlets, I found that the one has wires both backstabbed and on the screws, so I pigtailed those together and just used the screws. I didn't change the rest of the outlets (they are all backstabbed).

This behavior is the same regardless of the outlet used. A couple things: should I replace the outlets? I am pretty sure the current outlets are whatever the cheapest at Home Depot are. I also read that this could be a bad neutral connection in the breaker box, but there is no issue with the circuit on the other half of the duplex breaker. What are the chances the breaker is bad? It doesn't trip, and it doesn't seem hot or burnt. If it matters, the box is a Sylvania (compatible with current Siemens QT breakers).

If you plug the TV into a different circuit, that is, a different breaker circuit, what happens?  That TV might be just pulling down a lot of current when it starts up.

So when you check the other outlets, did you continue to use the surge protector?  I have seen some weird stuff with a surge protector that was failing.  Also,  is there a GFI outlet anywhere in the outlet circuit?  I have seen similar issues with a GFI in the process of going south.

Finally, when I was still working (IT), we had a remote portable building that kept eating switches and had computers rebooting randomly (lost a couple of power supplies in them as well).  Took some time to figure out, but the entire building had what our electrician called a 'floating ground'.  I think I recall that he drove a 6' ground stake outside the drip line of the building and grounded the panel to that stake.

I have the surge protector plugged into a different (20 amp) circuit, and it's fine. The thing I'm noticing though, is the surge protector has a power indicator light that comes on when it's plugged in and switched on, even if nothing is plugged into it. That light doesn't come on when it's plugged into the bad circuit.

I used both the surge protector and a plug in outlet tester to test the outlets (FWIW, the tester just indicates "correct" for all of them). There is no GFI in the circuit. I think a floating ground would show up as ungrounded on the tester, but I'm not sure (I have another circuit with an open neutral, so I know the tester will show something besides correct).

Is there another breaker in the panel that you can swap for the breaker the suspect circuit?  That might narrow it down for you,  particularly if the problem follows the breaker.

The power lights on surge strips are notoriously cheap.  I don't think I own a single one that doesn't flicker during some point of its operation.

Do other electronics on that surge strip (or circuit) actually work properly?  First suspect I think should be the surge strip.  Then I would check continuity to ground on the ground plug.  Surge strips work by shunting the juice to ground.  If the strip or the outlet don't have good ground, they don't work right.

A cheap surge strip will work anywhere.  Newer ones (like one I bought for my home entertainment setup) is digital, and it won't even power on without an adequate ground (I actually read the owner's manual).  For instance, if I plugged it into one of those 2-prong converter things, it would just flash red instead of solid green when you turn it on.

It doesn't flicker at all when plugged into a different circuit. But it is cheap and I originally thought it was the problem, so I bought a slightly better one (Belkin). When that one is plugged in, it indicates "Ungrounded" and won't turn on, just like you are describing. It does work fine on other circuits, so a ground problem seems likely. That will give me probably 3 weeks of troubleshooting to work on, but I don't mind.

Working on this again. In the pursuit of a good ground, I purchased a GFCI outlet to replace the outlet in the box where all the wires are. When wired to what I think are the line wires (other ones do not provide power to the outlet), the GFCI status light just blinks red and can't be reset. The directions say this indicates a problem and to replace the outlet. Is it really likely that the outlet is bad out of the box? I guess it could be a return that got put back on the shelf. I included a pic of the box, the line wires are the lower right hand pair (each pair has it's own conduit, which is how I'm deducing that they are pairs). The others are capped.

How old is your house?

I don't see any ground wires in that picture.

1979 or so (it's a townhouse). There are no ground wires anywhere in the house. My understanding is that the ground is provided through the conduit instead (and my testing shows that at least my outlet tester thinks the other outlets I tested are grounded).

I assume you are thinking the wires should be replaced and a ground wire added? My friend the amateur electrician also suggested that. It wouldn't be too hard, as this outlet is about 6 feet almost directly above the panel. But I am pretty stubborn and lazy.

There was a time when conduit grounds were acceptable.  Not anymore.

You could easily have a conduit screw that has become loose, which would mean poor ground.  Try pulling a ground wire into the conduit.

...and I don't think a conduit ground will work for a GFCI. 

Yeah, I guess that's going to be best. I might get it done by August.

GFCI is going to require a ground. Without one, it's going to think there's something wrong.

For some reason I was under the impression that it was self grounding. But I guess if the conduit is poorly grounded that won't work.

You could try running a ground wire from the ground terminal on the outlet to a ground screw screwed into the box.  It may not work but is an easy thing to do.

Hal said:

You could try running a ground wire from the ground terminal on the outlet to a ground screw screwed into the box.  It may not work but is an easy thing to do.

I agree this is easy, but it won't solve the problem if the conduits are loose.

SVreX said:

...and I don't think a conduit ground will work for a GFCI. 

Not to code, but I've done it before and the GFCI physically works.  Sometimes the ground isn't very strong and it trips when you plug something in, but assuming the ground is good through the MC, they work.

In reply to Curtis :

Ok. Learned something  

But in this case, he may have a loose conduit bond, and the GFCI wouldn't work if that was the case. 

SVreX said:

In reply to Curtis :

Ok. Learned something  

But in this case, he may have a loose conduit bond, and the GFCI wouldn't work if that was the case. 

Correct.  The ones I put in my bathroom tripped once every few days when I plugged in my beard trimmers.  If I measured resistance to ground I got something like 6 ohms, so it doesn't take much to foul it up.

I guess it may also vary by GFCI manufacturer.  Mine seemed to ground fine through the screws to the box, but I guess another manufacturer might require the ground from the screw post.

A ground is not required for a gfci. Anyone that tells you differently is misinformed. The gfci will work just fine without a ground. 

In reply to Mazdax605 :

That's weird. 

Why is it called a "ground-fault circuit interrupter". It's supposed to break the circuit if there is a fault with the ground. 

SVreX said:

In reply to Mazdax605 :

That's weird. 

Why is it called a "ground-fault circuit interrupter". It's supposed to break the circuit if there is a fault with the ground. 

Nope 

Look it up, no ground needed on a gfci. There's even instructions and usually stickers in the box that say not grounded. I've been doing this a long time. No ground necessary for a gfci. 

In reply to SVreX :

They protect against a ground fault. They look at neutral and hot current and compare them. They should be the same. If there is a fault to ground ( like through a human) they will sense that all the current going to the load from the hot is not all coming back on the neutral, so it must be going to ground and then they trip to turn the circuit off.

Doesn't protect against an issue with the ground wire.