I ain't sayin' nuthin. Just posting up some news.

Dr. Hess wrote: Then add in the fact that our electrical grid simply can not handle the load of people plugging in their cars. SoCal has roving blackouts because of this.

Maybe my google skills aren't up to par, but I can find no record of any black or brownouts ever being attributable to electric vehicle charging overloading the grid. Got a link?

In regards to that problem, however, check out the research being done on vehicle-to-grid applications. All that stored energy could be a valuable source of peak load leveling.

jg

JG Pasterjak wrote: At the end of the day, the Volt is a tool. Used properly, it produces stunning results. There are plenty of reasons to criticize it, but 99% of the opposition to it is purely political, or simply the fear of something different. jg

this

fasted58 wrote:

JG Pasterjak wrote: At the end of the day, the Volt is a tool. Used properly, it produces stunning results. There are plenty of reasons to criticize it, but 99% of the opposition to it is purely political, or simply the fear of something different. jg

this

Nope, nothing of the sort. I am actually cross shopping the energi line from Ford. They just aren't claiming to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, straight forward, Hey look it's a hybrid that you plug in instead of running gas first. we will give you a bigger battery pack to run on the juice longer too.

In the end I think electrics are cool, I took this post as a "GM isn't making any money...again" and this is the reason why. Which goes to figure, if they can't get the build costs down. Or have a long term strategy with the unit, just like I said before.

I like people throwing up the new battery composition as a reason, what ever justifies the lack of difference for you. I read the article from Motor Trend and GM. I understand the differences as well as anyone.

I am an engineer. I have a degree in engineering. I go to work and do things an engineer should. I am the technical competency for a product line in North America for products from Japan, in transmissions. I have been inside a Prius transmission so I understand that well, not rebuild mind you but reverse engineer. I own a German car, one that many on here feel is stupid. I love my car, it is comfortable and checks all the right box for me. I don't get offended when someone else does not like my car. I am OK with that.

I am not saying the Volt is a bad car, I am just saying it isn't all that. I hope you enjoy your Volt, I hope you get great cost returns, and you get a quicker payback on your investment, and you feel good about reviving GM and being able to steal your commuter money back from your employer. I wish you zero trips for service and double the life from the tires.

Just don't tell me it is more than it actually is when I get to talk to the people who own them, build them, and improve them daily.

Tom Suddard wrote:

Flight Service wrote: or for required acceleration,

No it doesn't, and that's what makes it unique.

That's not what the power diagram on the MT article posted or what the article said happens above 70.

It doesn't bother me either way. I just wonder why people get so touchy about this car?

Oh, then I misunderstood. Frickin' planetary gears!

JG Pasterjak wrote:

Dr. Hess wrote: Then add in the fact that our electrical grid simply can not handle the load of people plugging in their cars. SoCal has roving blackouts because of this.

Maybe my google skills aren't up to par, but I can find no record of any black or brownouts ever being attributable to electric vehicle charging overloading the grid. Got a link? In regards to that problem, however, check out the research being done on vehicle-to-grid applications. All that stored energy could be a valuable source of peak load leveling. jg

I remember a theory about this happening in the future. But never actually happening FWIW

Flight Service wrote:

JG Pasterjak wrote:

Dr. Hess wrote: Then add in the fact that our electrical grid simply can not handle the load of people plugging in their cars. SoCal has roving blackouts because of this.

Maybe my google skills aren't up to par, but I can find no record of any black or brownouts ever being attributable to electric vehicle charging overloading the grid. Got a link? In regards to that problem, however, check out the research being done on vehicle-to-grid applications. All that stored energy could be a valuable source of peak load leveling. jg

I remember a theory about this happening in the future. But never actually happening FWIW

I am pretty sure it's fallacy - they charge slowly and don't have a whole lot of capacity and nothing else is on during the night. From an environmental perspective, I am not a fan of electric vehicles due to nasty battery chemicals, but the Volt is a neat car that I sort of want and charging them is not at all an issue from what I can figure.

The problem that I have with the Volt is that is should not exist. It makes little sense for our market, and would not survive on it's own in a free market. Very few people are buying them despite the "low" price with Chevy selling them at a loss and the tax breaks. One of the largest customers is the government itself. I have a big problem spending tax payer money to subsidize an overpriced car, and then using more taxpayer money to buy the over priced cars for the government. The military is actually buying a bunch so that they can be more environmentally friendly. You can't make this up! Also, many local governments give special perks to hybrid/ electric car drivers like use of the car pool lane when alone or reduced bridge tolls to increase incentive to potential buyers. They did that a few years ago in CA with the Prius. Sales went crazy because commuters could get special privledges. Couple that with the fact that the owners pay little to no road tax since it's tied to fuel, and you end up with most other motorists paying more for less. Don't forget, GM needs to sell Volts, loss or not, so they can still sell the cars that people want to buy and still meet CAFE averages. Does anyone really think GM is the only manufacture capable of bringing this type of car to the market? If not, why isn't everyone else selling $60k cars for half price, if it's for their own long term benefit?

I'd rather see GM losing a bit of money on a low-volume car in order to develop and refine technologies that will put them ahead in the marketplace and more profitable in future years than see them slashing every cent they can in order to make a slim immediate profit. Doing the latter is how they ended up making crap cars that nobody wanted and going bankrupt in the first place.

I wasn't thinking about the ability to plug this car in when I posted my other comments.

I did not intend to bash on this car. I just haven't quite figured out how hybrids are more efficient. (I realize this isnt a hybrid like the the non-plug in variety)

Is this car really that much different from a plug-in Prius (if a Prius had Li-po batteries)?

Please, GRM, continue to edumacate me!

Thanks,

Rob R.

Max_Archer wrote: I'd rather see GM losing a bit of money on a low-volume car in order to develop and refine technologies that will put them ahead in the marketplace and more profitable in future years than see them slashing every cent they can in order to make a slim immediate profit. Doing the latter is how they ended up making crap cars that nobody wanted and going bankrupt in the first place.

+1

I am going with this. I had never really been a GM fan growing up but they are slowly winning me over. This car is just adding to their awesomeness of late. If this cost of R&Ding and building a new drivetrain that will be improved upon and used in other platforms, an initial loss doesn't seem like a bad idea in the long run economics.

Dr. Hess wrote: Then add in the fact that our electrical grid simply can not handle the load of people plugging in their cars. SoCal has roving blackouts because of this.

Southern California Edison did a study on that and right now, with no other changes to the grid, half the cars in California could be switched to electric, charge at night, and the grid would be MORE efficient (less ramping down at night and ramping up in the morning). They also figure that by having these huge numbers of batteries connected to the grid using smart chargers (which most level 2 chargers are) it would actually balance out the load and provide battery backup for peak hours. Yes, the cars would serve as UPS systems in effect, smoothing out power delivery across the grid.

Secondly, even if we decided to wholesale switch to EVs, at present rates of production, it would take, get this, upwards of 50 years of continuous production and sales to replace every car and truck in America. FIFTY YEARS. THat means there would be at least THIRTY years for the grid to get smarter and better. Since we aren't MAKING a wholesale switch to EVs overnight, there's no worry about how the present grid could handle it.

Simply put, that arguement is a pointless non-starter.

Boost_Crazy wrote: The problem that I have with the Volt is that is should not exist. It makes little sense for our market, and would not survive on it's own in a free market.

The car was started back in 2006 By Bob Lutz who wanted to leapfrog the Prius and create a technological market leader. He pushed GM management to greenlight it (which they originally didn't want to do) and then pushed for the technology that didn't exist yeat to be developed. This was back while Bush was in office and oil subsidies were at an all time high. It was going to come to market regardless.

Remember, Toyota lost money on every Prius sold for a while, too.

Boost_Crazy wrote: Very few people are buying them despite the "low" price with Chevy selling them at a loss and the tax breaks. One of the largest customers is the government itself.

This is patently bullE36 M3. The largest group of owners is the private sector. There are close to 30,000 Volts in PRIVATE hands. I'm part of a rather large group of us. About 2000 are owned by the governement.

Boost_Crazy wrote: I have a big problem spending tax payer money to subsidize an overpriced car, and then using more taxpayer money to buy the over priced cars for the government.

Yet you probably have NO problem with the amazingly large subsidies for the oil industry, and tax breaks for everything under the sun, from tax breaks for auto manufacturing plants, and tax breaks for things like home businesses.

BTW, tak breaks are not subsidies. Repeat after me, TAX BREAKS ARE NOT SUBSIDIES.

wvumtnbkr wrote: I wasn't thinking about the ability to plug this car in when I posted my other comments. I did not intend to bash on this car. I just haven't quite figured out how hybrids are more efficient. (I realize this isnt a hybrid like the the non-plug in variety) Is this car really that much different from a plug-in Prius (if a Prius had Li-po batteries)? Please, GRM, continue to edumacate me! Thanks, Rob R.

See my earlier post with an explanation and efficiency charts.

Flight Service wrote: The Volt is a $32K hybrid car (engine is connected to the wheels, like a Prius, the engine is not a generator as originally promised, like a Fisker)

Arrgh. NO.

Again, come drive my car, don't berkeleying speculate.

I have yet to have the engine drive my car's wheels. And I've had it over 80 mph in pure electric mode. When the engine does run, it's providing electricity to the battery pack, and the rpms of the engine have nothing to do with what the throttle pedal is doing.

There are only a couple very specific, very specialized situations whre the engine drives the wheels (and it connects through both electric motors to do so). The Prius is a gasoline car that has an electric motor to assist it. A COMPLETLEY berkeleyING DIFFERENT CONCEPT.

Chris_V wrote:

Flight Service wrote: The Volt is a $32K hybrid car (engine is connected to the wheels, like a Prius, the engine is not a generator as originally promised, like a Fisker)

Arrgh. NO. Again, come drive my car, don't berkeleying speculate. I have yet to have the engine drive my car's wheels. And I've had it over 80 mph in pure electric mode. When the engine does run, it's providing electricity to the battery pack, and the rpms of the engine have nothing to do with what the throttle pedal is doing. There are only a couple very specific, very specialized situations whre the engine drives the wheels (and it connects through both electric motors to do so). The Prius is a gasoline car that has an electric motor to assist it. A COMPLETLEY berkeleyING DIFFERENT CONCEPT.

Argh Yes, once again I will trust the GM engineer rather than you, sorry.

Chris_V wrote:

Flight Service wrote: The Volt is a $32K hybrid car (engine is connected to the wheels, like a Prius, the engine is not a generator as originally promised, like a Fisker)

Arrgh. NO. Again, come drive my car, don't berkeleying speculate. I have yet to have the engine drive my car's wheels. And I've had it over 80 mph in pure electric mode. When the engine does run, it's providing electricity to the battery pack, and the rpms of the engine have nothing to do with what the throttle pedal is doing. There are only a couple very specific, very specialized situations whre the engine drives the wheels (and it connects through both electric motors to do so). The Prius is a gasoline car that has an electric motor to assist it. A COMPLETLEY berkeleyING DIFFERENT CONCEPT.

It's a much different concept than the Prius, but the gas engine does have a ring gear that runs in the same orbit as the one on the primary drive motor. But everyone gets so hung up on this "connected to the drive wheels" concept like there's some sort of giant band clamp that engages with a thud. To say that it's connected to the drive wheels grossly undersells the complexity of the connection. That Motor Trend article uses a much better description when they say that the gas engine "directly participates in providing motive force."

Here is the long version, but it's a good watch for engineering types.

And here is just the animation that shows what's actually going on.

jg

In reply to Tom Suddard:

I get that electric engines are more efficient. That doesn't mean they get power for free in a true hybrid. They are not 100% efficient. In a "regular hybrid" there is still an ICE that is generating the electricity.

Therefore you are still converting energy 1 extra time. Even with a ICE that is 10% or 15% more efficient (a HUGE improvement) over its normal car ICE equivalent, I still don't get how you come out ahead.

Your graph shows an electric motor vs an ICE. This is NOT the comparison. The comparison is between a MORE efficient ICE + electric motor VS. a standard (larger rpm range) ICE.

That's 2 devices that turn potential energy into rotary motion vs. 1.

However, this is all totally off topic and doesn't matter as soon as you are able to plug in the car to charge the battery. When you can do this, it becomes potential energy into rotary motion.

This comparison makes sense (this is what your chart above is comparing).

Maybe I should start another thread on this.

Rob R.

P.S. Both of our current threads on the Volt are perfect examples of Chevy's utter inability to properly market this car, as well as being excellent examples of why I own one.

jg

In other news....

MSN Money on 5/2/2013 said: Tesla Expected 2014 earnings growth: 606% Expected 2014 sales growth: 29% Skeptics who questioned whether electric car maker Tesla Motors (TSLA) could ever be a real business got their eyebrows singed in early April. The company announced it turned profitable in the first quarter without any help from accounting adjustments. Plus, billionaire Elon Musk, the company's founder and CEO, said sales of its latest car, the Model S sedan, exceeded 4,750 units for the quarter, beating forecasts. Tesla shares soared to the mid-$40 range from $38. Since then, they've gone even higher, to trade above $51. The Model S is hot. It won the Motor Trend Car of the Year award for 2013. Starting in late 2014, Tesla hopes to do it again by rolling out the Model X, a minivan-SUV crossover. Behind the scenes, the company sells electric vehicle power train components to other carmakers, including Daimler AG (DDAIF) and Toyota Motor (TM). Tesla is an innovator in another big way. Unlike other car companies, it owns its dealer network. This helps Tesla keep inventory costs down. And with any luck, the Silicon Valley-based car company will keep sleazy car salesmen out of its showrooms, too. That, alone, would be a jolt of good news for car buyers.

http://money.msn.com/stock-broker-guided/10-red-hot-growth-companies-for-2014-1

I'm starting to see quite a few Model S sedans whirring around the Princeton area...

I like the Volt. Wish they made a wagon version...

JG Pasterjak wrote: That Motor Trend article uses a much better description when they say that the gas engine "directly participates in providing motive force." jg

Not on my car. It has never, in 3800 miles, directly participated in providing motive force.

Again, the point is, the engine can ONLY drive the wheels (through the other two electric motors) in VERY select and specific circumstances, AND it has to be running to do so. If it's not running, it's not powering the wheels, and if you're running on battery power, the engine is not running. As I've said, I've been over 80 mph on pure electric power with the gas generator not running at all.

And in Hold mode, it ONLY generates electricity to keep the batteries topped off while you drive. PERIOD. In 3800 miles of driving the car, including a 1500 mile round trip to CT for a week, I've yet to have the engine drive the wheels. Try THAT in a Prius or Fusion Energi. There are guys at GM-Volt.com that have gone 25000 miles without the gas engine even running (other than the built in program to use fuel so it doens't go bad).

JG Pasterjak wrote:

Dr. Hess wrote: Then add in the fact that our electrical grid simply can not handle the load of people plugging in their cars. SoCal has roving blackouts because of this.

Maybe my google skills aren't up to par, but I can find no record of any black or brownouts ever being attributable to electric vehicle charging overloading the grid. Got a link? In regards to that problem, however, check out the research being done on vehicle-to-grid applications. All that stored energy could be a valuable source of peak load leveling. jg

Sorry, JG, my post was unclear. I didn't mean the black/brownouts were because of the electric vehicles. I meant they were because of an inadequate grid structure. My bad.

My parents were experiencing lots of power outages in SoCal. They (the power people) would just shut the grid off at night while they were working on it.

Flight Service wrote:

Chris_V wrote:

Flight Service wrote: The Volt is a $32K hybrid car (engine is connected to the wheels, like a Prius, the engine is not a generator as originally promised, like a Fisker)

Arrgh. NO. Again, come drive my car, don't berkeleying speculate. I have yet to have the engine drive my car's wheels. And I've had it over 80 mph in pure electric mode. When the engine does run, it's providing electricity to the battery pack, and the rpms of the engine have nothing to do with what the throttle pedal is doing. There are only a couple very specific, very specialized situations whre the engine drives the wheels (and it connects through both electric motors to do so). The Prius is a gasoline car that has an electric motor to assist it. A COMPLETLEY berkeleyING DIFFERENT CONCEPT.

Argh Yes, once again I will trust the GM engineer rather than you, sorry.

What did / does he engineer at GM? It's possible to be an engineer - even on the same car - and have nothing to do with the drivetrain or how the engine connects to the wheels. He could be working on door latches. He would have no more information on this subsystem than any of us at that point. Plus he's not here, and we have no input from him on credentials. This is no different from our perspective than "my friend says" or "it happened to my cousin's roommate."

Chris_V wrote: BTW, tak breaks are not subsidies. Repeat after me, TAX BREAKS ARE NOT SUBSIDIES.

Sorry, Chris. I'm going to disagree there. Tax breaks are indirect subsidies. Just like your mortgage interest deduction.

Chris_V wrote:

JG Pasterjak wrote: That Motor Trend article uses a much better description when they say that the gas engine "directly participates in providing motive force." jg

Not on my car. It has never, in 3800 miles, directly participated in providing motive force. Again, the point is, the engine can ONLY drive the wheels (through the other two electric motors) in VERY select and specific circumstances, AND it has to be running to do so. If it's not running, it's not powering the wheels, and if you're running on battery power, the engine is not running. As I've said, I've been over 80 mph on pure electric power with the gas generator not running at all. And in Hold mode, it ONLY generates electricity to keep the batteries topped off while you drive. PERIOD. In 3800 miles of driving the car, including a 1500 mile round trip to CT for a week, I've yet to have the engine drive the wheels. Try THAT in a Prius or Fusion Energi. There are guys at GM-Volt.com that have gone 25000 miles without the gas engine even running (other than the built in program to use fuel so it doens't go bad).

And there's a dude there that has run his Volt entirely on energy collected with solar panels since day 1. That's hardcore.

jg