As someone who was once addicted to vicodin i agree with most people here. I quit when my then girlfriend found out she was pregnant. You have to want to quit, detoxing at home by myself was miserable enough that i avoid opiate based painkillers if at all possible.
I have had patients that were former addicts, both prescription and street. They had serious pain that certainly could use something like Vicodin or Tylenol 3 for a few days. They would refuse even an ibuprofen. Absolutely did not want anything, and they would rather deal with the pain than a pain medication.
I had another patient come into the ER at like 3AM. "I can't sleep." He was in a car wreck a few weeks ago and wanted narcotics. I offered him ibuprofen and flexeril, which he refused, storming out saying "I'm going to xxx hospital. They give me what I want." He sent a nasty letter to the hospital saying I wouldn't give him his drugs.
My concern here is not the war on drugs, it's a huge problem with no clear answers and it isn't going away. My concern is how a person can give birth to 5 children from 5 different fathers, each with physical issues they will deal with for the rest of their lives because of mom's drug use during her pregnancy, and simply walk out of the hospital each time and abandon them? How is this monster not in jail for child abuse, endangerment or something criminal? How can you just keep doing that over and over again to human beings...and our laws are 100% OK with it?
How can you pass out or O.D. in public with your kid at your side, alone, crying, confused and scared, and get that kid back again later? The kid should be taken away forever and the parent shot on site to prevent them from ever endangering that kid again. (OK, I know, not feasible, but something!)
When are we going to start protecting the little ones? Look, if you are a crackhead, I will buy condoms for you, I will pay for your birth control, I will take that 3 month old off your hands so you can go OD in an alley somewhere, just don't wrap it in a garbage bag and throw it in a dumpster. (has happened more than once)
/rant
In reply to pinchvalve:
I'm for temporary sterilization at birth. Once you prove you're not a pile of crap, it gets reversed. Crass, crude and mean but I don't care. Literally any two morons can make a child. Just because you figured out how to bump uglies doesn't make you a parent.
pinchvalve wrote: My concern here is not the war on drugs, it's a huge problem with no clear answers and it isn't going away. My concern is how a person can give birth to 5 children from 5 different fathers, each with physical issues they will deal with for the rest of their lives because of mom's drug use during her pregnancy, and simply walk out of the hospital each time and abandon them? How is this monster not in jail for child abuse, endangerment or something criminal? How can you just keep doing that over and over again to human beings...and our laws are 100% OK with it? How can you pass out or O.D. in public with your kid at your side, alone, crying, confused and scared, and get that kid back again later? The kid should be taken away forever and the parent shot on site to prevent them from ever endangering that kid again. (OK, I know, not feasible, but something!) When are we going to start protecting the little ones? Look, if you are a crackhead, I will buy condoms for you, I will pay for your birth control, I will take that 3 month old off your hands so you can go OD in an alley somewhere, just don't wrap it in a garbage bag and throw it in a dumpster. (has happened more than once) /rant
One of the parties in our government wants to prevent those people from having any chance of getting an abortion.
<- Ducks and runs out of thread.
In reply to Robbie:
Even if you weren't floundering the thread with stupidity, what difference would that have made here? These people aren't getting abortions anyway, hence the disabled children at birth and the babies dumped into dumpsters.
In reply to Bobzilla:
I won't flounder here, but do some research on the relationship between ease of abortion availability and crime and addiction rates over time.
STM317 wrote: In reply to mazdeuce: They have to want to be helped too.
This is the kicker. So many addicts I know don't want help, aren't ready, can't handle the lifestyle changes needed. From smokes to pokes, "I want to but...." is the first sign They've got a long way to go.
The problem with addiction, almost universally from my notice, is underlying issues. I can't say I didn't enjoy smoking, I did. But, it was a crutch for a lot of E36 M3 that was going in that I kept hiding under the carpet. I happened upon needing some pain meds in a timeframe when I was at my worst mentally. Were it not for my extreme predilection against pain medication, I could see the addiction. One opioid and my day got real easy. Gotta treat the mental with the physical. I've seen people come clean completely on their own through sheer force of will, and I've seen the strongest people crack with all the support in the world.
In reply to Bobzilla and Pinchvalve: Unfortunately there is a history of such policy in this country. "Eugenics" was all the rage in the US and much of the world at the start of the 20th century. "How do we have fewer 'defectives'?" Simple, sterilize them. No more spawn from that gene strand.
But Hitler showed up and took the entire idea too far and in an evil direction. And people started looking at who was being judged "defective" and by whom. And then the whole personal/civil liberties thing came up........and we end up where we are today. On the road to Idiocracy with no clear idea of how to get back.
As ever, I'm rooting for the plague to clean the slate.
In reply to KyAllroad:
I'm more an Asteroid kinda guy. But I did go to Space Academy in Huntsville back in the 80-90's (1989).
Maybe some light at the end of the tunnel?
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/08/health/fda-opioid-opana-er-bn/index.html
This is an EZ fix. Require all addicts with children to carry life insurance. ?? min $1m. If they get with in 10 days of the policy lapsing. Lock them up for 30 days. Double it with each offence.
Or only bad people do bad things on drugs. Lock them up! 10 years is a good start.
In reply to GVX19:
Jails and prisons are already filled with people with substance abuse issues. There have been cases where violent criminals have been released early due to prisons being overcrowded with drug convicts. I don't see how putting more of them in jail fixes anything in the big picture.
These people are already breaking the law by doing illegal drugs, and often end up breaking the law to support their habits. Theyre not going to care a single iota about breaking a law about insurance, and that assumes that they could afford to fund insurance instead of their habit, which is also highly unlikely.
In reply to Bobzilla:
I've honestly thought that would be a good idea for a while now, and not just for this element- it would prevent essentially ALL unwanted pregnancies and end the abortion debate completely. Of course, there would be at least as much objection as there is to abortion (though from much the same groups) and the birth rate would plummet. You could remove some of the objection to it by making it possible to voluntarily have it reversed at any time, essentially making it so you had to CHOOSE to get pregnant and not use it punitively. But that's an entirely different (though obviously somewhat related) debate.
I don't think you're ever going to solve the drug addiction problem through jailing addicts. It's arguable that even dealing those who provide and make the substances isn't helpful (and difficult when it's a massive corporation supplying it to boot). At the moment, I'm not sure there IS a perfect solution- but making a serious effort at actually trying to treat the addiction and the underlying reasons for it is a damn sight better than just making everything illegal and throwing a large portion of the population in jail.
While greatly oversimplified, the underlying reason is that people aren't emotionally equipped to deal with life and all the E36 M3 it dumps on us, especially when amplified by feeling trapped within a seemingly unescapable cycle of poverty/pain/abuse/depression. It's then perpetuated over generations.
The other issue is that over the last century or so people have come to expect leisure, luxury, and relatively pain-free living as a given in life, which was actually a pretty rare exception throughout most of the history of human civilization.
GameboyRMH wrote: Maybe some light at the end of the tunnel? http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/08/health/fda-opioid-opana-er-bn/index.html
Not even close. They will just go to heroin, which is why we are discussing this.
Also, never underestimate an user's ability to defeat anti-abuse methods in medications.
I understand the anger about the user of drugs but want to voice that drug addicts are just that addicts. I have had conversation with two addicts at length, one young man got hooked when he thought he was smoking cigars at a party but they were laced with something and he said he should have asked for help but didn't realize why he wanted the cigars so badly the next time. The young lady I talked to got turned to prostitution and drug use by her boyfriend. Many drug addicts have just made bad choices some tricked and some probably forced. Regardless it isn't as easy as some here think to just stop and act responsibly.
The movies have made it seem that anyone can get over drugs with perseverance and gumption or some other BS. Oh and a Pixie girlfriend to save them. The power of these drugs is real. Don't deny the power of our technology to make drugs that overcome our free will. I have a family member that intentionally took a drug based on pressure from their significant other. They tell me they think about using when they get hungry, sleepy, tired, really happy, basically any emotional swing drives the desire. They have been clean for a few years but man all the evidence I see is that we as humans can't just leave behind drugs with a mindset change.
Solutions are tough, you never can tell if an addict is a victim of human trafficking or just made stupid choices. Careful what you say the government should do to individuals that do things that are not very happy making.
I worked shortly in a woman's hospital as a transporter and saw first hand the number of babies recovered from the streets and sent to be stored in our morgue as we had the contract to hold them. Having a baby in the hospital and leaving it seems a HUGE step better.
We need to make illegal drug use in the US something of a priority. I read a commentary that if we could just focus our war on drugs tax dollars on helping the users we could likely make a great progress. Get over the idea of hurting drug users and focus on resolving the problem of drug addiction by putting in mandatory drug recovery programs with pleasant outcomes rather than making sure you instill fear and punishment.
I don't know, I don't have all the info to make a call. My opinion is that there must be a way to stop drug supply and demand at the same time. We just need the will and money to do so.
Dr. Hess wrote: It's a lot more complicated. Different people react to narcotics (and I'm using narcotics in the proper medical/pharmacological meaning of the word, not the "po-po" meaning of "something illegal") differently. Some get a euphoria from it. Others not. I have seen patients so stoned on narcotics that they couldn't keep their eyes open yell (slur) "I'm hurting" so they could get even more narcotics. Most people don't do that. Most people, you give them some Vicodin post surgery and in a few days they are off it and get on with their lives and recovery. As I have said before, we should completely decriminalize all drug use. My main reason for that is that enforcing the current laws is doing more damage to our society than the drugs. You just have to reach a point where you realize that more good money thrown at a problem that won't ever be fixed is not a good idea, cut your losses and go. Kinda like a 1979 Harley-Davidson.
This. Though I doubt it will ever happen, given the lobbying influence of both the drug companies and the prison industrial complex.
That's not a "political statement" or "tin foil hat" E36 M3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked, we have a larger percentage of our population in jail than ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
Meanwhile, every other commercial on TV is "Buy these pills! They'll fix everything!" Or "Buy this insurance so you can get your happy pills for FREE!"
You can pop a xanax/hydrocodone/vicodin or twelve, hop in your car and drive. But god forbid you get popped with an open beer or a joint. They gotta fill those jails and collect those taxes.
To quote a comedian I heard recenty: We call our drugs "medicine" and our "medicine" drugs.
/rant
Smarta$$ McPoopyPants wrote:Dr. Hess wrote: It's a lot more complicated. Different people react to narcotics (and I'm using narcotics in the proper medical/pharmacological meaning of the word, not the "po-po" meaning of "something illegal") differently. Some get a euphoria from it. Others not. I have seen patients so stoned on narcotics that they couldn't keep their eyes open yell (slur) "I'm hurting" so they could get even more narcotics. Most people don't do that. Most people, you give them some Vicodin post surgery and in a few days they are off it and get on with their lives and recovery. As I have said before, we should completely decriminalize all drug use. My main reason for that is that enforcing the current laws is doing more damage to our society than the drugs. You just have to reach a point where you realize that more good money thrown at a problem that won't ever be fixed is not a good idea, cut your losses and go. Kinda like a 1979 Harley-Davidson.This. Though I doubt it will ever happen, given the lobbying influence of both the drug companies and the prison industrial complex. That's not a "political statement" or "tin foil hat" E36 M3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked, we have a larger percentage of our population in jail than ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. Meanwhile, every other commercial on TV is "Buy these pills! They'll fix everything!" Or "Buy this insurance so you can get your happy pills for FREE!" You can pop a xanax/hydrocodone/vicodin or twelve, hop in your car and drive. But god forbid you get popped with an open beer or a joint. They gotta fill those jails and collect those taxes. To quote a comedian I heard recenty: We call our drugs "medicine" and our "medicine" drugs. /rant
I guess my view is that we deal with detrimental drug use similar to highly toxic sites being cleaned up by the EPA. Both are terribly underfunded to accomplish the work efficiently and then everyone complains that they are not going fast enough, safe enough, effective enough, etc.
Part of my agency is about to relocate to an EPA cleanup site, just on the other side of the complex. The EPA let us know that they could clean up the site in 5 years but based on the current funding are looking at 25 years.
Drug laws are old and out of sync and add on top of that funding inadequate to the task and we just won't see much success.
As someone with an addictive personality, I won't use prescription opiates.
It took me 20 years to stop smoking. I can just imagine how long it would take to get off real drugs.
Bobzilla wrote: In reply to pinchvalve: I'm for temporary sterilization at birth. Once you prove you're not a pile of crap, it gets reversed. Crass, crude and mean but I don't care. Literally any two morons can make a child. Just because you figured out how to bump uglies doesn't make you a parent.
This would solve lots of problems!
In reply to Smarta$$ McPoopyPants:
I worked in the Texas prison hospital for a while. Most of the people in there were in there for drugs or something related to drugs like robbing to get money for drugs. There were some really nice people in there. There were some really not nice people in there too, and plenty inbetween. We weren't supposed to ask them what they were in for. Like I ever follow rules. HA. Anyway, I would ask some, especially the nice ones, what they were in for. Putting those people in prison for a couple years is a total waste of resources. Yeah, the prison/military/court/police system has a large stake in keeping the status quo going.
Like with Prohibition, this won't end unless the local level takes control back. That's why alcohol regulation is at the county level today. The local level took control back.
Oh, driving under the influence of a prescribed BZD or narcotic such as Vicodin is still illegal. Not quite as easy to bust as with a breathalyzer on the side of the road, but still illegal.
Pete Gossett wrote: While greatly oversimplified, the underlying reason is that people aren't emotionally equipped to deal with life and all the E36 M3 it dumps on us, especially when amplified by feeling trapped within a seemingly unescapable cycle of poverty/pain/abuse/depression. It's then perpetuated over generations. The other issue is that over the last century or so people have come to expect leisure, luxury, and relatively pain-free living as a given in life, which was actually a pretty rare exception throughout most of the history of human civilization.
Quoted for truth. So many people are unhappy, and poorly equipped to deal with hardship. They use whatever substances or activity makes themselves temporarily less unhappy. In the 13 years since I graduated high school, about 20 of my former schoolmates are dead because they've been unable to cope with the 'real world'. They either overdosed, died doing something stupid while under the influence, or they've taken their own life after their substance of choice couldn't cover up the unhappiness anymore.
Advan046 wrote: Having a baby in the hospital and leaving it seems a HUGE step better.
Agreed, I just wish we didn't have so many unwanted babies in the first place. I am not actually advocating sterilization, I'm just venting, but something needs to be done. What is society going to do with the children of the thousands of people who die every year from drugs in 10 years? 20 years? The social system is already overburdened. UGH, I am going to hug my kids now. Hard.
Smarta$$ McPoopyPants wrote: You can pop a xanax/hydrocodone/vicodin or twelve, hop in your car and drive. But god forbid you get popped with an open beer or a joint. They gotta fill those jails and collect those taxes. /rant
Not entirely true. I know people charged with DUI for prescription medication. Hell you can be charged even if you are just sleepy. Impaired is impaired.
EDIT: Oh poo. I see Dr Hess already addressed this.
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