I think Pay Pal just lost a customer.

I had the same deal when I set up a merchant / virtual terminal setup on paypal a few years ago. Would have been super - allowed me to accept CC, rates were reasonable, etc

However, when I was approved they said all transactions would be held for 90(!) days before being released to me. I was selling loads of tuner parts (quaife, sparco, koyo, etc) and that supplier was not giving me net 90 terms. It wasnt just my terminal setup, it was all of my paypal transactions. I had a bunch of ebay $$ that sat in limbo for 90 days.

Then they did this to me: more paypal horror

Grr. Hate 'em, but still use them.

^^90 days! That's completely absurd.

Curmudgeon wrote: That's what chaps my ass. I'm supposed to have money hit my PP account, they hold it, then ship something to East Bumberkeley and hope I don't have an assclown on the other end who's willing to warp this to get a freebie whatever? No, I don't think so.

I recently received the same message as you (~5 year ebay member, impeccable feedback), and had the same reaction, too. Selling on Ebay is simply not worth the bother anymore. As much as I'd like to veto Paypal completely, I still use it for small online purchases.

Put something on your Ebay auctions that you will not ship until Paypal releases their hold on your funds.

That being... 21 days.

If the buyer has an issue with that, they can take it up with Paypal to have the funds released sooner.

This reason is specifically why I dont shop on Ebay at all anymore...Its not worth the $18 I could potentially save buying the sold-as-authentic-but-really-is-a-Taiwanese-knockoff of whatever it is Im trying to buy. And forget selling on Ebay - between ebays cut, and paypals antics, Im not going within arms distance of that fraud-uverse. Good luck, but Im not holding my breath that its going to get any better...

Oh neat.

I just had a refund issued to me.

Those funds are on "temporary hold" with no explanation given.

Thanks PayPal.

I'm going to shake the tree a bit.

I believe in a previous thread, BoxHeadTim mentioned something about some regulatory organizations that could be tipped off to something like this. Let's see how fast i can strong-arm PayPal into giving me back MY funds that went out the first time with NO HOLD AT ALL.

I just demanded details up and and including documentation why the funds are being held under the Electronic Fund Transfers act.

Could be fun.

PS: Curmudgeon, PayPal is currently in a class-action lawsuit over their 90 day hold policy.

ooo.... let us know how it goes down, blow by blow.

Here's the first reply from them:

Paypal said: Dear ________, Thanks for your email. To help you as quickly as possible, here is some information we feel will most likely suit your needs. A. How do I ask for a refund? B. Why is my refund pending? If these do not help you, please reply to this email with as much information as possible and we will do our best to get back to you as soon as we can, or you may contact us at 1-888-221-1161 or 1-402-935-2050 (if calling from outside of the United States). Yours Sincerely, PayPal, an eBay Company A. How do I ask for a refund? To request a refund, send the seller an email. Ask the seller to go to the Transaction Details page for your transaction and click "Issue a refund". You can request a refund up to 60 days after you pay for your item. Here's how to find the seller's contact information: 1. Log in to your PayPal account. 2. Click "History" 3. Click "Details" next to the transaction you want a refund for. 4. Use the contact information to send the seller an email. Note: - If you paid with a credit card, your refund is credited to the card you used. It may take up to 30 days for the refund to appear on your card statement. - If you paid with a debit card, your refund is either credited to the card or to your PayPal balance. - If you paid with your bank account or PayPal balance, your refund is credited to your PayPal balance. If the seller won't refund your money, you have 45 days from the date you paid for your item to file a dispute. Here's how to file a dispute: 1. Log in to your PayPal account. 2. Click "Resolution Center" 3. Click "Dispute a Transaction" 4. Select "Item dispute" then click "Continue" 5. Click "Find transaction ID" then click the transaction ID you want to dispute. 6. Click "Continue," then follow the instructions. B. Why is my refund pending? We start to process your refund as soon as the seller sends the refund to you. Depending on the banks involved, it can take up to 7 business days for a refund to be deposited to your PayPal account. If it has been more than 7 business days since you requested your refund, please contact your seller to find out why your refund is still pending. Here’s how to find the seller's contact information: 1. Log in to your Paypal account. 2. Click "History." 3. Click "Details" next to the transaction for which you want a refund.

And my response. (Yes, i blew my lid a little early. Too bad. They do this to me at least twice a year.)

Me said: Are you serious? I JUST sent an email with the details. Do not bother sending any more canned replies. I received a refund from a seller due to the fact that the item was no longer available. Well, no. I didn't receive a refund. The seller sent one, and then PayPal intercepted the funds for no reason. Other than to hold on to the money longer for interest reasons. My account overview shows status as "refunded." This is horseE36 M3. The money is NOT refunded. You are holding MY money. Do not try to tell me that it's due to the banks or any other BS. The money was not coming from the seller's bank. The money is coming from his PAYPAL ACCOUNT and should be going into my PAYPAL account. NO BANKS INVOLVED. No reason for hold. Transaction ID# 1RH827666C383920F. That money will be released to my paypal account by 12:00AM, January 11th, 2012 or i will be contacting the appropriate regulatory agencies. In addition, under the Electronic Funds Transfer act, i am formally requesting all documentation related to this transfer up to and including an explanation that holds water as to why this transfer has been intercepted. Comply immediately.

So yeah... i'm probably going a bit overboard, but it's the only way i've EVER gotten results from this company.

where would you even send a certified mail....

madmallard wrote: where would you even send a certified mail....

The who to what?

legal notices of action usually have to be sent thru certified mail so you have a record that they actually received it.

madmallard wrote: legal notices of action usually have to be sent thru certified mail so you have a record that they actually received it.

I'll request that address if they don't give me the details.

I'm just trying to strong-arm them right now.

Whether PayPal is actually subject to the EFT Act is open to debate in the first place.

Melissa @ PayPal said: Dear _________, My name is Melissa from PayPal Consumer Support. Looking through your PayPal account, seller refunded your payment on January 6, 2012. The funds amounting to $460.00 USD should be released anytime today or latest will be on January 13, 2012. When sending a bank-funded payment using the Instant Transfer payment method, the PayPal system automatically fronts the payment to the seller's PayPal account, thus making your bank-funded payment instant, while simultaneously, a request is sent to your bank in relation to the transaction. On the other hand, the process of transferring your funds from your bank to the PayPal system takes 3-5 business days via the Federal Reserve Bank's ACH transfer process. In the event that the seller cancels or issues a refund for the transaction, the money that was fronted by PayPal to your seller will be placed on hold, while we wait for the ACH transfer to complete. Although the payment was refunded by the seller upon receipt of payment, when an Instant Transfer has been initiated the request to your bank for an ACH bank transfer has already been triggered. Once the bank transfer is complete, the temporary hold on your refund will be released and the funds will then be credited to your PayPal balance. You can then opt to transfer the funds back to your bank (by clicking on the ‘Withdraw’ subtab on ‘My Account’) or you can let the funds stay on your PayPal. In case you need further assistance, please let us know. You can also reach us at 1-888-221-1161 during these hours: 4:00 AM PT to 10:00 PM PT, Monday–Friday 6:00 AM PT to 8:00 PM PT, Saturday and Sunday PayPal is doing the best effort to make sure all concerns are handled and addressed properly to your satisfaction. Thank you for choosing PayPal. Sincerely, Melissa PayPal Consumer Support PayPal, an eBay Company

My reply:

Me said: Melissa, the seller did NOT refund my payment on the 6th. The seller refunded my payment this morning. My original funds have cleared from my bank. This would be indication that the funds are in fact in paypal's system. As such, the ACH transfer is complete. There remains no reason whatsoever that i would not have those funds in my paypal account already. So i ask again: Why are these funds being held? If this request is not formal enough via email, please provide a mailing address to which i may send a legal letter inquiring via certified mail.

Unbelievable.

They called my bluff. Any input on what to do next?

I'm wondering what The Federal Reserve has to do with this...

Khein said: Dear ___, My name is Khien from PayPal Consumer Support. Indeed, the transaction was refunded today, January 10, 2012. The funds are temporarily held because we haven't received the funds from your bank yet. Though your bank account was debited already, the transaction needs to go through clearing house process via Federal Reserve. You can mail your letter to our legal department: Attn: Legal Dept./Civil 2211 North First St. San Jose, CA 95131 If you have further queries, please let us know. You may also reach us at 1-888-221-1161 during these hours: 4:00 AM PT to 10:00 PM PT, Monday–Friday 6:00 AM PT to 8:00 PM PT, Saturday and Sunday Thank you for choosing PayPal. Sincerely, Khien PayPal Consumer Support PayPal, an eBay Company

so in their words, they have not yet received funds from your bank for the payment in the first place?

and what does your bank say? called them yet?

madmallard wrote: so in their words, they have not yet received funds from your bank for the payment in the first place? and what does your bank say? called them yet?

That's what they're saying...

Payment was made on the 6th, funds cleared out of my bank early yesterday. (According to my bank.)

Apparently my money is currently floating around in the Federal Reserve. I just asked Paypal for the Fed Transaction number to track.

I find it REAL hard to believe that everytime i purchase something via paypal it takes Paypal themselves 5 days to actually get the money.

I'm also a bit miffed that they would "front" the money to the seller, but refuse to do the same thing when money is being refunded to me?

The seller obviously wants to refund the money to me, Paypal front me my money, and if the seller's refund bounces, they take it from him.

They're holding a refund to me because of a pending payment to the same seller? WTF?

Just got another canned response out of nowhere.

Lauren @ PayPal said: Dear _____, Thank you for contacting PayPal Customer Support. My name is Laureen and I am happy to assist you. When sending a bank-funded payment using the Instant Transfer payment method, the PayPal system automatically fronts the payment to the seller's PayPal account, thus making your bank-funded payment instant, while simultaneously, a request is sent to your bank in relation to the transaction. On the other hand, the process of transferring your funds from your bank to the PayPal system takes 3-5 business days via the Federal Reserve Bank's ACH transfer process. In the event that the seller cancels or issues a refund for the transaction, the money that was fronted by PayPal to your seller will be placed on hold, while we wait for the ACH transfer to complete. Although the payment was refunded by the seller upon receipt of payment, when an Instant Transfer has been initiated the request to your bank for an ACH bank transfer has already been triggered. Once the bank transfer is complete, the temporary hold on your refund will be released and the funds will then be credited to your PayPal balance. You can then opt to transfer the funds back to your bank (by clicking on the ‘Withdraw’ subtab on ‘My Account’) or you can let the funds stay on your PayPal. Thank you for your contribution in making PayPal a more secure option in sending and receiving payments online. In case you need further assistance, please let us know. You can also reach us at 1-888-221-1161 during these hours: 4:00 AM PT to 10:00 PM PT, Monday–Friday 6:00 AM PT to 8:00 PM PT, Saturday and Sunday Thank you for choosing PayPal. Sincerely, Laureen PayPal Consumer Support PayPal, an eBay Company

eBay and Paypal have just about killed their convenience factor while all the fees went up. Expensive and inconvenient is not a good business plan.

Sounds like smoke and mirrors to hide money so they can make a buck or two on the transaction, on top of their fees.

I THINK all bank to bank transfers have to go through the clearinghouse, or a middle man, to get them to their respective "owners". Much like credit cards when batched out go to a clearinghouse so they can be billed to the respective company. But these clearinghouses don't take but a day to process from when they get the transaction.

Ranger50 wrote: Sounds like smoke and mirrors to hide money so they can make a buck or two on the transaction, on top of their fees. I THINK all bank to bank transfers have to go through the clearinghouse, or a middle man, to get them to their respective "owners". Much like credit cards when batched out go to a clearinghouse so they can be billed to the respective company. But these clearinghouses don't take but a day to process from when they get the transaction.

They do have to go through a clearinghouse... but it being domestic, it's a same day process, Federal cutoff is 4pm for that day.

They have my money. They probably had it Friday. I paid EARLY Friday morning. Like.... 5am early.

Actually... Paypal's own site says that the transfer from my bank to Paypal is complete. Friday morning.

Should i create an invoice via paypal and send it to the PayPal customer "support" email address for my refund amount?

Fun update. It's very interesting to me that i never get to speak to the same person twice. This tells me much about their commitment (or lack thereof) to customer service.

Jo Anne @ PayPal said: Dear _____, My name is Jo Anne from PayPal Customer Service. I know how concerned you are about the held $460.00 USD refund in your account. Since I really wanted to work closely with you, I attempted to call you at xxx-xxx-xxxx but you were not available. I was hoping to talk to you because I feel we can best address your concern if we do it over the phone. Don't worry, I am sending this email as a follow-up. I see that the $460.00 USD refund in your account is scheduled to be post in your PayPal balance on January 13, 2012, Friday. The reason as to why it takes a few business days to get a refund is that the original payment went through and was funded by Instant Transfer. Instant Transfer is a funding method available on PayPal wherein we will front the money for you so that the seller can ship the item right away without waiting for your bank to give us the money (banks can take up to 3 to 5 business days to transfer the payment to PayPal). If the seller refunds a payment while we are still waiting for your money from the bank, the refund will be placed on hold temporarily. Let me assure you that it has nothing to do with your PayPal account. Should you have other concerns please do not hesitate to send another email or give us a call at 1-888-221-1161 or 1-402-935-2050 during these hours: 4:00 AM PT to 10:00 PM PT, Monday–Friday and 6:00 AM PT to 8:00 PM PT, Saturday and Sunday. Our aim is to satisfy all your needs and give you the best customer experience. Sincerely, Jo Anne PayPal Consumer Support PayPal, an eBay Company

My reply:

Me said: Hi Jo Anne, I'm at work, and am not available to take calls while at work from 6am to 6pm Monday through Friday. I'm not trying to argue any further without hard facts from either party, however. I would like the Federal Transaction Reference numbers that shows the transfer to Paypal from my bank. Domestic-to-domestic bank transfers all go through the Federal Reserve clearing house. Domestic transfers are cleared through Federal Reserve same day with a 4pm cutoff time. The good thing about having to go through the Federal Reserve is that all Electronic Transfers are assigned a Reference number for tracking purposes. I would like that number, please. I agree that this has nothing to do with MY Paypal account. This has to do with a delay within PayPal as a company, as i can assure you that my funds have not been in the Federal Reserve since Monday at the very latest, but more likely since Friday afternoon. My funds are in PayPal, just not in my account where they belong. The fact that you can see that the funds are "scheduled" to be in my account on Friday tells me that you know where the money is and have been tracking it. The Federal Reserve does not tell you when my money will be in my account, Paypal does. It also shows that PayPal is intentionally holding the money for the maximum 5 day period for their own gains.

Wow 92celica, this is getting better by the minute.

I keep gnawing at the whole thing in my head; I will probably still use PayPal for small online purchases for a while but will open a Google Wallet account for money coming to me. What aggravates me is that I use PP to transfer LeMons related funding and it appears they have just slammed the brakes on that since there is no way to generate an eBay feedback.

Come to think of it, that might be what triggered the whole thing for me; my 'outside of eBay' transactions. Regardless, I can't let them berkeley around with my money for 21 days .

I think when this is all said and done i'll start another crusade to actually get them to close and delete my account entirely. From what i understand, that's a bit of a battle in itself.

I've been using PayPal since 2004. I have never had a dispute opened against me. I have never had to refund anyone any money.

However, i've had to open at least 10 disputes against sellers, and every last one of them was a nightmare filled with unhelpful PayPal "intervention."

I've had funds placed on hold with no reason at least 10 times, and every last one of them was also a nightmare. Last time, they held funds coming to me for 3 weeks and never gave me a reason why. Finally got resolved because i had the buyer beat them up a bit and tell them that he was not getting his goods until i had the money cleared in my account.

The company is a crooked joke.