Least grassroots car registration question ever asked.

ultraclyde wrote: I don't have anything constructive to add but I think I'd like to be wearymicrobe when I grow up.

34 years old, 20+ broken bones over the years, several bits of cancer cut off my head, one growth inside my head which requires constant medication, 20 years of working 60 hour weeks and being told that I am nothing because I have no degree even though I have 10x the experience. Almost no hair because it started falling out when I was 18ish from stress, also turned gray at about the same time. Sterile from a very very nasty car accident as well. Also I am often told by that the reason that I am successful is because I am a white entitled male by coworkers.

I would pass.

In reply to wearymicrobe:

If you want to envy someone, you have to envy everything. All things considered, I'll pass.

Life truly is the good with the bad. Would trade a lot of it for some of my health back.

Lonely as well not a lot of 34 year old's with my income and resources, that is why I like it here. Everyone build the best thing they can with the skills and resources that they have at there disposal. Seriously cool stuff that I truly love to watch being built. Not a lot of complaining and lots of people going toe to toe with wallet built cars.

I was lucky in my positioning in life seen some people here who if given my chances would have done much much better then me.

This is a common issue for folks with mega motorhomes. IIRC CA has a long duration of ownership outside the state before it can be brought in to avoid paying tax - a year or so registered and used outside of CA to prevent paying tax. You need to find out the CA specifics about bringing in a car that you own because that is the real issue - how to do that as economically as possible.

There are a number of forces in play. Insurance wants to know where it is garaged, and the registration then needs to match where it is garaged.

calteg wrote: A lot of folks will buy a P.O. Box in Montana and register the vehicle there....might be worth looking into.

Beaten...this is standard practice for supercar owners in the US.

From what I heard, people have got into trouble in CA (of the trouble with the taxman kind) when doing the Montana LLC thing for expensive cars. Not sure how much of that is fearmongering but I'd look into that first.

To me, it sounds like leasing would make more financial sense for short-term ownership, although you end up stuck with the car for the duration of the lease if you like it or not. Can't believe I'm using lease and financial sense in the same sentence .

Registering vehicles here in Michigan is cheap once you own it, but you pay a 6% sales tax on the full purchase price of the used car. So if you are buying a $150K used super car you will be out $9,000. I think in Florida whatever tax you pay is the price of the new car less any car you traded against it.

I'd look at Florida. I seen dozens of Florida plated cars running around all the time here that obviously live here year round so I assume that it's cheaper to either title or tax a car down there.

Would an out of state plated super car really get pulled over in Cali?

Another advantage or running around with Florida or Michigan plates is both states are rear plates only so you don't need to ugly up your car with a front carbuncle.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I'd look at Florida. I seen dozens of Florida plated cars running around all the time here that obviously live here year round so I assume that it's cheaper to either title or tax a car down there.

People may do this but it doesn't make it right, nor are they covered the way they think they are. In a police stop with casual interrogation (up here for vacation? Do you stay up here for a long period?) if it is deemed that the car is primarily in MI using MI roads then it needs MI plates and that can be a violation. Similarly, insurance rates are based on where the car is garaged. You can lie to the insurance folks and tell them FL, but if it is hit or stolen in MI and they start asking questions you are open to a denied claim.

wearymicrobe wrote:

ultraclyde wrote: I don't have anything constructive to add but I think I'd like to be wearymicrobe when I grow up.

34 years old, 20+ broken bones over the years, several bits of cancer cut off my head, one growth inside my head which requires constant medication, 20 years of working 60 hour weeks and being told that I am nothing because I have no degree even though I have 10x the experience. Almost no hair because it started falling out when I was 18ish from stress, also turned gray at about the same time. Sterile from a very very nasty car accident as well. Also I am often told by that the reason that I am successful is because I am a white entitled male by coworkers. I would pass.

Hmm.. I'm about to turn 33, is this all I have to do to go from pedaling $6k C55's to $150k Supercars?

I know when I moved from NJ to Pa.. because I owned my car for over a year in NJ.. Pa (surprisingly) didn't charge me sales tax

I know plenty of people who register their car in another state.

Register it in FL or MI, make sure the insurance policy has it being located in CA though. If MI or FL has property taxes pay it.

My car is registered in VA I pay VA property taxes on it. My insurance policy is California though.

How can they bust you? You own homes in all those states. So the car is essentially property that's mobile. There's no insurance fraud with it. And as long as you're paying taxes with whatever state the car is registered under, that's no tax evasion or fraud.

I'll like to add:

My coworker.

He lives in CA but owns a home in Destin FL. His cars are registered in FL and have always been. But he lives in California. When he gets pulled over cops never ask him why he has FL plates. Beyond what people and police think, they can ask a bunch of questions but they can't do E36 M3 about anything if you agent breaking the law. What are they going to do? Write a ticket for owning property in FL?

The P.O.box trick is illegal because that's not prof of property or residency in that state.

So many people in southern California have out of state plates. And all the ones with FL property use FL.

Only reason you need CA insurance policy is because rates are higher out here and CA requires any car garage/primarily driven there have comprehensive insurance. No matter what state the car is titled.

Where is your drivers license out of?

What's "interstate commerce"? I'm asking because I really don't know – I'm Canadian. If your bright orange supercar has your website or logo on it, or a business-related Michigan vanity plate, then it's an advertisement for your business, right? (I mean, people noticed it all the way across the country.) Does that constitute "interstate commerce"? If so, the tax code stuff quoted earlier would appear not to apply.

License is out of California.

Looks like I can do a executive lease on the car and only pay on the depreciation, they can back-load a balloon payment on the lease as well so I can avoid even some of that apparently.

Biggest problem is I don't like the 650s or the MP4-12C in person. Locally there is a salvage titled Ford GT for about 150K that is fully repaired and has a larger super-chager and built motor that I am going to look at. Honestly the most fun I have had in a car recently is a manual F360 but the prices on manual older exotic cars is going through the roof.

In reply to yupididit:

It is illegal and it is tax evasion if you are avoiding paying taxes in state of residency. You can only have one state of residency and you are subject to all the laws therein. You can't pick and choose which state laws you'll follow just because you might own property in another state. Here is one example of a crackdown on the Montana scheme. There are others.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/09/22/crackdown-on-luxury-car-owners-dodging-taxes-with-montana-registration/

I don't see what the insurance policy has to do with anything. Are you saying the policy is issued by a CA company? As long as they are licensed to do business in your state, all the state cares about is that you have a certain amount of insurance. That's not something that has a bearing on where taxes are paid, etc.

yeah the Montana thing

In reply to Basil Exposition:

If you pay sales tax on a car and move to another state you don't have to pay sales tax on it again.

You only pay yearly property taxes on the state the case is registered in.

How is either tax invasion?

So if he bought the car in FL and registered it in FL then drove it to CA, is that evasion?

I'm not going to comment on the insurance thing. Obviously you don't understand.

If you are a resident of a certain state and you buy a car in another state you are required by state law to register that car within a certain time frame should you take that car back to your home state. Just as when you move from one state to another you are required to get a driver's license and register any car you bring with you within a certain amount of time (I think it is 60 days in Texas). When you register that car, some states will assess a use tax (a pretty stiff one in CA, IIRC). If you buy a new car (someone posted the relevant CA law earlier) and take it back to your home state, and register it there, as you are required to do, the sales tax will be assessed at that state's tax rate. You should actually tell the dealer that is your plan to avoid being assessed sales taxes in both places. I had to do this with a car I bought in AZ and shipped home to TX, where I then paid the sales tax.

Long story short, if your friend is driving a car registered in FL while driving it full-time in CA, he is breaking at least one law requiring him to register his car in CA and probably more by evading the use and property taxes he would thus be required to pay.

There are exceptions, such as full-time college students and military are generally not required to reregister their cars while living in another state.

You don't say where you are a resident, but if you are living full time in CA and have your vehicle registered in VA, while driving it in CA you are breaking the law, including evading CA taxes. Look it up. Just because people do it and get away with doesn't mean it is legal.

Here is a place to start:

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_content_en/dmv/pubs/brochures/howto/htvr33

If people are doing it to avoid CA taxes, why do you think avoid doesn't equal evade? Think about it.

Basil Exposition wrote: If people are doing it to avoid CA taxes, why do you think avoid doesn't equal evade? Think about it.

Fundamentally, tax avoidance is legally structuring your affairs to reduce the tax burden, tax evasion is illegally misrepresenting your affairs to reduce the tax burden. Putting your retirement savings in an IRA instead of a normal checking account is tax avoidance, putting them in an account in the Caymans and not declaring it is tax evasion.

I'm sure there are legal ways to have an expensive car and drive it in California without paying the sales tax, but they might not be worth the money and hassle. This is really where you need a CPA or attorney. :)

Technically and semantically you are correct. My point was that there is a reason why folks are making these efforts to not pay taxes and fees and govts generally structure their laws to punish those efforts since they rely on those revenues. While lawyers and CPAs might find loopholes and complicated schemes that successfully and legally avoid them, the scenarios yupididit describes (though he doesn't provide a lot of facts and I'm making certain assumptions) are not complicated.

In reply to Basil Exposition:

So what do people legally do when they have multiple residences and cars that live in different places? It's not like there are only a couple of people in the country with this issue, there's many many thousands of them. I can't see a world where it's even remotely practical to drive cars half way across the country and back for inspections not to mention the fact that a car might be purchased and live it's entire life away from the residence of the owned?
And I'm genuinely curious. I would like to leave something 4wd at my cottage but I live somewhere that has annual inspection. When I ask people how they do it legally they just say "haven't had trouble". That doesn't equal legal.

In reply to mazdeuce:

Well, it's complicated. If you read the CA DMV information, if your cottage were in CA and you drove it mostly in CA (there are definitions as to what comprises "mostly"), then you'd have to register that vehicle in CA, regardless of where your primary residence is. So, some things will depend upon state of residency (as I said, you can only have one) and some things depend on where the stuff is.

What do people do? Well, hypothetically take someone with homes in two different states, A & B. He says his primary residence is in B. State A has income taxes, but B doesn't. His business is in B. According to the laws of A, if he resides more than 6 months in A all his income (including that from his State B business) is subject to that state's income tax, regardless of the fact that he still maintains a house in B. He has a vehicle that he drives back and forth to B that he registers in B because it is cheaper, but he keeps it in A most of the time.

So, assuming he spends more than 6 months of the year in A, he legally should be registering his vehicle there as well as paying income taxes on his B income. Practically speaking, no one is standing outside his home in A counting the days he spends there. However, he runs the risk of someone tattling on him or a crackdown on such folks by state A. I know the IRS gives tattlers 10% of any taxes collected, I don't know about states, but that's potentially a pretty strong incentive for someone to turn you in.

I expect that most people with homes in a number of states select residency where it is most advantageous to them and rationalize their choice if it isn't legal (such and such a tax is ridiculously high, blah, blah, blah).

I'd like to piggyback a related question: How do you deal with car insurance when you have residences in separate states? We're just starting to deal with this, and it seems way more difficult than I'd expected. For example, our agent in IL who I've had for years, told me I needed to find an agent in MS to handle our cars there...but that agent said we'd lose our multi-car discount - even though it's all through State Farm??? I'm not opposed to switching carriers, but I've had State Farm for almost 30-years, and I've yet to find anyone cheaper.

Alright some real leasing numbers.

F430 Spider in Red/Tan all options but no carbon brakes. ~11K miles.

115K price with registration taxes but no sales tax.

Lease is no money out of pocket.

Monthly for 60 months is 1,540 for a total of 92400 With Tax Final Payment of 45,000 + Tax at 60 months. (49387.50)

So 141,787$ total over the life of the lease. Would be 126212$ If I paid cash outright with tax.

But If I only hold the car for say two years which is what I would do ~36960 out of pocket car I would owe 86400 on the car.

I figure in 2.5 years a clean sub 25K mile F430 spider will be worth about 95K give or take on a good day. So some money back to me when I sell which is fine.

So the car will cost me out of pocket about 17K or so in depreciation and about 14K in interest and fees on the loan. So about 31K out of pocket or about 1K a month and another 200 or so a month in maintenance and tires.

Real question is am I going to get 1.2K a month worth of fun out of a F430, and do I think that it will hold its value over the next 30 months with me driving in ~3K miles a year. Total cost on the car is going to be about 3.40$ a mile to drive it. When I look at it that way its less appealing then at first glance even with the reduced tax load. I can do a Gen IV ACR viper for about half and have some warranty left that and it might actually hold its value better.

Biggest thing is I have started to sell of some of the classic shells that I have around and am down to just the Cadillac and Thunderbird right now so if I sold one of them it would cover all the costs for 2.5-3K years and it would be hopefully more reliable.

petegossett wrote: I'd like to piggyback a related question: How do you deal with car insurance when you have residences in separate states? We're just starting to deal with this, and it seems way more difficult than I'd expected. For example, our agent in IL who I've had for years, told me I needed to find an agent in MS to handle our cars there...but that agent said we'd lose our multi-car discount - even though it's all through State Farm??? I'm not opposed to switching carriers, but I've had State Farm for almost 30-years, and I've yet to find anyone cheaper.

I'd call the call center; they'll probably be able to do it. Otherwise you're likely going to need an agent who is licensed in both IL and MS. I'd guess if one exists they're in Memphis.