Saying that people can earn more if they get additional education or skills presupposes a lot of things: that there are a lot of unfilled lucrative positions, that they've got access to education or job training, that they have time for that training, that they've got a way to support themselves while they're getting that training, etc. It pretty much just assumes that all these people are working minimum wage jobs because they're just lazy.
The list of countries without minimum wages (or some form of guaranteed wage through collective bargaining) is pretty depressing. Bahrain, Brunei, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Cyprus, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Micronesia, Fiji, Grenada, Iraq, Kiribata....it goes on, but the only one on the list that's "first world" is Lichtenstein, which is an outlier in basically every way.
Free market paradises, all of them!
Some inflation is a good thing to the economy. Not the rampant stuff we had in the late 70s.. but a few points of inflation will power the economy well.
oldopelguy wrote:
If unskilled labor wants to earn more money than they can learn a skill that pays better.
People unable to learn a skill despite all the opportunities are probably already receiving other assistance and people unwilling to learn a skill that pays better don't deserve the nice things that come with better pay.
If we ever meet. The beer is on me.
A full time minimum wage job will easily pay for everything you need, if you are willing to live the way our grandparents did with more than one earner combining their resources and live the way most of the world lives. $15k a year goes decently far if you are renting a room or living with your parents.
The white picket fence home in the suburbs is a dream because of how it compares to the alternatives of having 3 roommates or family living with you. There's nothing wrong with that lifestyle, it just isn't as common and not as pleasant.
4cylndrfury wrote:
...If minimum wage goes up, retailers know the market has more dollars available, so they will in turn raise prices to get more of those newly-available dollars. Its called free-market, supply and demand, what-have-you.....
I am pretty sure the free market does not work like that. Company A raises it's profit margin because people have more money. Company B see's that raise, keeps theirs the same, advertises against A, gets more customers. That's free market competition. What you are talking about is a monopoly or some sort of collusion / market manipulation.
I should elaborate a bit:
I'm not in favor of the federal minimum wage being raised.
For those states with a higher than average cost of living I think it is the states responsibility to set that states minimum wage sufficiently.
If the federal minimum wage is to be raised I think it should be done proportionately to an increased cost of living, no the other way around.
oldopelguy wrote:
If unskilled labor wants to earn more money than they can learn a skill that pays better.
No, not always, it's already been pointed out that there are McDonalds wanting a degree to flip burgers. If you come from a poor family and are only just going to get into collage in the first place you are going to end up with student loan debt which you'll never pay back on a low wage, let alone increased minimum wage job. This last 'great recession' had millions of people going back to school for more education and it isn't yet translating into some magic wage hike.
oldopelguy wrote:
A full time minimum wage job will easily pay for everything you need, if you are willing to live the way our grandparents did with more than one earner combining their resources and live the way most of the world lives. $15k a year goes decently far if you are renting a room or living with your parents.
The white picket fence home in the suburbs is a dream because of how it compares to the alternatives of having 3 roommates or family living with you. There's nothing wrong with that lifestyle, it just isn't as common and not as pleasant.
Try living in a big city and it's hard, really hard even sharing with others. Also many of the abuses and pitiful wages / working conditions are what laid the ground work for the rise in labor unions to fight for better wages to give people a better life.
Yea let makes Federal Minimum wage like $15/hr and I'll go work out in bum-fug beautiful country at the local gas station instead of in the urban areas where wages are higher.
I'll be rich where the average house mobile home sells for $25,000.
4cylndrfury wrote:
Basically, the more dollars in circulation, the less valuable each one is. Printing money does the same thing.
It's not the same thing as printing money, because you're not increasing the money supply, you're just altering where it goes. Your theory that they're the same implies that there is some kind of container where the money goes instead of going into lower-wage paychecks, where it's in some kind of black hole and effectively out of circulation. What is this container?
Where did all the talk of $15/hr come in. The OP was asking about a hike in the minimum wage, he didn't give a figure. There's a big difference in upping it to say $10 or $11 and jumping all the way to $15
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Try living in a big city and it's hard, really hard even sharing with others. Also many of the abuses and pitiful wages / working conditions are what laid the ground work for the rise in labor unions to fight for better wages to give people a better life.
Move. Seriously. No one says you have to live in a big city. There is a lot of world out there to sit stable in a shiity situation.
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Where did all the talk of $15/hr come in. The OP was asking about a hike in the minimum wage, he didn't give a figure. There's a big difference in upping it to say $10 or $11 and jumping all the way to $15
I was being dramatic.
Just saying that out in rural areas the jobs pale by comparison in both wages and in numbers. There are many jobs that you just don't find outside of densely populated urban areas.
Sure housing might be cheaper, but not everyone wants to work on a farm or some other "rural" job.
Apexcarver wrote:
from http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/05/us-usa-employment-fastfood-idUSBRE9B40WW20131205
Basically, it depends on the veracity of their statement there..
I agree, $15 an hour is shooting too high though.
An hourly rate of $15.00 equates to a weekly pay of $600, monthly pay of $2,600, and an annual salary of $31,200.
An hourly rate of $8.25 equates to a weekly pay of $330, monthly pay of $1,430, and an annual salary of $17,160.
Sorry, the $15 probably comes from here
Bobzilla wrote:
Move. Seriously. No one says you have to live in a big city. There is a lot of world out there to sit stable in a shiity situation.
Easy answer when not considering the # of people who can't move. They are already a family working 2 jobs, they have a child they can't move out of state/area/city due to divorce and parenting rights, elder relatives etc etc Many could, but not all. Plus the cost of moving isn't insignificant especialy when poor. What if you are in susidised housing. Can you get help somewhere else in advance etc etc. Many people are trapped.
I'll own up that my views are shaded by living in a high cost of living area (DC-MD-NoVa)
Might be right on the regional thing. I do have a feeling that we might be bumping up to a small adjustment on the fed minimum though.
My acceptance of raising the minimum wage will likely come as a surprise to those that know my fervorous support of capitalistic principles. Basically, I’m at the point where I’ll step aside from my core principles in exchange for a keeping my powder dry. (Braveheart) Hold, Hold (/Braveheart)
The low income folks will obviously benefit and they’re very efficient at quickly circulating any windfalls they receive through the economy. People like me (older and in their peak income years) aren’t going to take a significant hit as a small percent of our expenses go to low cost labor. The real casualties are those that have worked hard to elevate themselves beyond minimum wage only to be forced into equivalency with those that haven’t. Of course it’s not fair for them and of course it creates disincentives for the lower end of the labor market.
Whatever, I’ll keep my powder dry and say fine, knock yourselves out.
Oh, and “in before the lock”
RX Reven' wrote:
Oh, and “in before the lock”
We're all behaving like grown ups so far, if we carry on this will avoid the patio
wae
Reader
12/5/13 1:55 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Where did all the talk of $15/hr come in. The OP was asking about a hike in the minimum wage, he didn't give a figure. There's a big difference in upping it to say $10 or $11 and jumping all the way to $15
That's one of the biggest problems that I have with a government setting a minimum labor rate, though. If jumping it to $11 is fair, why not take it all the way to $15? Wouldn't that be more fair? Having a bunch of idiot congressmen spin a wheel and come up to a number is no basis for a system of government.
Don't forget that hours play a part in annual salary too.
Just because you make $11/hr doesn't mean your working 40/hrs a week. You'll still have the desire to work more hours and make more money, but it means more part time jobs that students work will earn more.
Yes, the minimum wage has been decreasing for decades.
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Bobzilla wrote:
Move. Seriously. No one says you have to live in a big city. There is a lot of world out there to sit stable in a shiity situation.
Easy answer when not considering the # of people who can't move. They are already a family working 2 jobs, they have a child they can't move out of state/area/city due to divorce and parenting rights, elder relatives etc etc Many could, but not all. Plus the cost of moving isn't insignificant especialy when poor. What if you are in susidised housing. Can you get help somewhere else in advance etc etc. Many people are trapped.
Why are you having children you can't pay for?
There is no "one answer solution" that you're looking for. It can't happen. Every case is different. Artificially bumping the minimum wage to $15 an hour isn't going to fix ANYTHING in the long term.
fritzsch wrote:
Yes, wages have been decreasing for decades.
Wages across the board should be raised. I'll leave my other thread for that.
fritzsch wrote:
Yes, the minimum wage has been decreasing for decades.
You sure you want to stick with that answer?
That looks to me like the minimum wage has been INCREASING for decades.
