In the same vein as the most recent posts, I would say that sometimes some kids need to learn the value of silence and listen more, talk less. How to instill that is another question. I adopted that in part because I wanted to be like some of my "strong and silent" type role models.
I posted something earlier today that I retracted - but I'll take another stab. I was a bit "over enthusiastic" about everything when I was a kid. I annoyed people with my interests because they were different from their mass interest. If I was talking about the Yankees no one would have beat me up but I wasn't. I was yammering on about Honda 3 wheelers, Jacques Cousteau and how I was going to fly the space shuttle. I annoy people even today with my love of cars/racing/motorcycles/making_stuff/world_view etc because I am somehow unable to gauge the intensity that is tolerable in mixed company. I always have been. The reward for being a social mess is that you can actually do things. People already think you are odd so you can be odd. I might be an ocean wide and a puddle deep and the list of failures is long but, the memory of doing it is there. On my deathbed I won't wonder "what if" (although I might cringe a bit at the actual outcome). In fact, everyone I respect now was awkward then. Rocking your own thing is a tough road until you get clear of the compulsory education phase.
Sorry for the wall of text. I'd hate to see you cull the individual out of him to serve the temporary needs of a one-size-fits-all education system.
Tell the boy to learn to fake assimilation until he can see clear to do whatever he wants to do. Fitting in is for people who fit in. Faking it until you can do what you want is a skill.
Not entirely looking forward to my son entering Middle School next Fall.
Hormones are a powerful hallucinogen.
mazdeuce wrote: Thanks everyone. Lots to think about. He's going to rallycross with me next weekend. Just the two of us. Camping out. I think I'll have him read this on the ride over and see what he thinks. Sometimes advice means more when it comes from someone other than your dad.
Yeah I think the biggest influence for the rest of his pre adult life will be Mom and Dad doing as you seem to be doing but now with Uncle X or Aunt Y giving the straight talks too. It will sink in much deeper if Uncle X says to him, "I am not sure what you are trying to do right now but it isn't how a young man acts, you should do blahblahblah. If you want to express blahblahblah"
Giving him an option of how to act in a situation is just as important as telling him how not to act.
Also, yes he may just need more liberal arts of acting or singing to release himself and maybe learn how to handle himself around people. Maybe physical sports isn't his thing he needs debate club or comedy club. Something requiring speaking.
I don't really have anything to add being a young guy with no kids, I'm just curious what is considered middle school where you are?
Here it ends at 6th grade, then 7th-9th are Jr High, then 10th-12th are High School. Jr. High is when we started switching classes every hour for 6 classes a day.
In reply to z31maniac:
Definitely seems to vary. The twp I graduated from (Bensalem, PA) it's: Elementry: 1-5; Middle: 6,7,8; High: 9-12. When I was in school, my twp had 6 elementry schools feeding 3 middle schools and one high school. Since then, one of the middle schools was closed.
If you don't mind, I would like to let Ms. Service respond to this later.
Sounds like a social seeking Aspie, but you aren't looking for labels. They really don't matter anyway.
We have a very similar situation with our younger son. He gets wound up and excited, like any 7 year old. But he has an arch-enemy that from day one has been a battle at school.
The best recommendation I have is that if at all possible, get him around other people and point out the social cues he is missing. Sometime videoing him and showing him the problems would help. There are a few books that would help in this category, that show facial expressions. Influencing with Integrity is a book I have that has pictures of different facial and body clues and what they mean. It is for adults but it might help illustrate what he is missing.
GPS brought up something that I ran into during middle school: my interests were racing motocross and reading a lot. Yeah, that guaranteed smooth entry into a society which values stick and ball games and looks down on anything that smacks of using the brain. I had no one to discuss my interests with so I just quit talking about them, that meant the Neanderthals viewed me as (again like Idiocracy) 'faggy'. It was a hard thing to go through, but as I mentioned I developed a thick skin that's served me well so it wasn't a total loss.
I mention this because your son is going to learn from this experience as well. It's important that he not learn to hide his true self from everyone but rather to be choosy who he shares this with. And to learn to shrug off the Neanderthals. it's a valuable lesson in getting along and let's face it: everyone does it. You ever meet someone and after a year or two you learn something about them that just blows your mind, something you never pictured them being involved with? That's what I'm talking about.
Ms. Service read the thread and only added that it might be worth it to send him to a behavioral therapist. It would help him learn a few coping skills.
She also says that a significant portion of people responding to this thread sound like Aspies.
Flight Service wrote: She also says that a significant portion of people responding to this thread sound like Aspies.
I'm not sure if I was supposed to laugh at this, but I did, loudly.
Thanks to Mrs. Service for reading. Mrs. Deuce also read through this whole thing this afternoon and we're going to talk about it tonight after the deucelings are down.
She is happy to help
PHeller wrote: I was your kid. My dad, more than anyone else, tried to reinforce that I should only speak when I had something good to say, and to think about what I was going to say. As a kid, I think hearing this from my father really hurt. I wanted him to listen and he always thought what I had to say was worthless.
I'm sure you're already doing so, but I think this is something to watch out for as you try to help your son work his way through this challenging time in life. It'll require balancing your desire to aid him in learning to read people and temper his outward actions, with being an outlet that he's going to need so that he isn't just bottling it all up and is able to just be himself too.
Good luck with your kid. I can identify with his issues.
As far as the aspies, last I knew it was no longer it's own thing and has been folded into the Autism Spectrum. Learning a bit about what the Spectrum had me realize how many symptoms I have within the "spectrum". I could go further but that would be a thread jack and I'm not sure on how to word much of it.
Flight Service wrote: She also says that a significant portion of people responding to this thread sound like Aspies.
Aspies? Is that like the Oscars or Emmies for the socially awkward?
I feel your kid's pain. I grew up with a vascular problem in my right leg which due to just really bad advice by Drs in the early 60's(granting that there wasnt much out there in medical knowledge at the time), my parents really limited my activities for most of my youth. The concern was that I would either throw a clot or bleed out if injured. My social skills were limited and I still dont get along well with certain personality types. Kids of my age didnt know how to deal with me either since I was clearly different(a blue leg) and protected by the system. I didnt get bullied much(luckily I was a pretty big kid) but I spent a lot of my youth on the "group W" bench with other misfits. It helped when I moved to a private school out of middle school. A totally new environment where my talents and skills were appreciated. Still to this day, there can be long moments of silence again when I am in certain circumstances(and that is after 30+ years of being a lawyer).
My cars have certainly helped and I am recognized locally for my knowledge, experience and success. I describe myself as being "self-satisfied" in my activities. No, that is not a reference to masturbation but rather not needing acceptance from the group to be happy.
What doesnt kill you will make you stronger and I dont know to get your son to understand his position and to quit trying to prove himself to people who quite frankly dont care about him and will be out of his life in a few years. He may just get a few bumps and bruises in the meantime.
whenry wrote: It helped when I moved to a private school out of middle school. A totally new environment where my talents and skills were appreciated.
Me too! I was still a social outcast, but I had a group of other social outcasts to hang out with (the gearheads). And the Nuns and Brothers didn't look kindly on any kind of bullying. It still happened a little on the bus, but I would have died in public school-no joke, several kids were killed by other students in my town (upper middle class to working class too ie not the ghetto)!
whenry wrote: My cars have certainly helped and I am recognized locally for my knowledge, experience and success.
Off topic: Wayne and I used to keep a count of who had owned the most Miatas locally. I'm on Miata #14-Hi Wayne!
whenry wrote: What doesnt kill you will make you stronger and I dont know to get your son to understand his position and to quit trying to prove himself to people who quite frankly dont care about him and will be out of his life in a few years. He may just get a few bumps and bruises in the meantime.
I now have a career that puts me in contact with 100+ potential customers per day. After years of reinventing myself to be who I wanted to be, I choose this partially because I knew it would either help my people skills or put me in the poor house. Despite some rough times I just bought a new $95k truck. IF a summer job is in the offing, something that involves commissions or tips could provide lessons faster than any teacher ever could. I wish I would have realized this years ago!
This article covers some of the possible reasons for nonstop talking (very similar to what the OP says his kid is doing) and better yet suggests some tactics to deal with it that don't involve medications. I personally think ADHD is pretty much the default setting for kids as they grow, I do not advocate doping them up over it.
https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/hyperactivity-impulsivity/why-does-my-child-talk-excessively?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=outbrain
Your kid sounds smarter than everyone else 
and doesn't read social queues all that perfectly yet. Heck, it's middle school. I know it's isn't funny to you guys but it made me laugh when you said one of the teachers was moving on. Nice vetting process your som has started.
Middle school has sucked a bit for us but has been better since starting recreational basketball. He's benefitted from just talking to a child psychologist every couple weeks for awhile, sometimes we go a few months and won't see the doc at all. His anxiety has all but disappeared. Insurance and our supplemental policy cover all of it.
My son's best buddy has Aspergers(no kidding, the real deal) and the psychologist has mentioned a social immersion group that understands his situation and takes him out and just hangs out with him. They discuss what's acceptable and what isn't, how people perceive his actions, Etc. I bet the local network of docs know about such things.
Wishing you guys the best. You seem like good parents leading a neat family.
Bruce
Funny, I found my old report cards the other day.
A lot of them had "does not work well in a group setting".
I distinctly remember being assigned group work, giving up and finishing my assignment myself because I got tired of waiting for the dumber children to catch on.
Trans_Maro wrote: Funny, I found my old report cards the other day. A lot of them had "does not work well in a group setting". I distinctly remember being assigned group work, giving up and finishing my assignment myself because I got tired of waiting for the dumber children to catch on.
He does this. Especially last year. We had a lot of discussions where he felt that group work was just a way for other kids to have him do their work. Especially projects that involved building things. They always ended up being kids just watching him do his thing.
VWguyBruce wrote: Your kid sounds smarter than everyone else
He tests at the very top of his grade. Always has. He's right at the age cutoff for his grade on the young end, which means he's always been the youngest, and that's part of what's going on too with the immaturity in some situations.
The big problem with him being the 'smart kid' is his big sister. She's a freak of nature. They're probably equal from a learning potential standpoint, but she's this incredibly odd super responsible kid who developed empathy and the ability to read people early. Every teacher she's ever had has requested special conferences to talk about her because they don't quite know what to do with her. She was invited to take the ACT this year (7th grade) and scored a 28 composite. She was at the 99th percentile for 7th graders nationally and would be at the 90th percentile for high school seniors. She busted her ass to medal at cross country districts. She just received her all A's for life award. I could send her to college right now and she'd do fine. I'm telling you, a wierdo.
So my son has THAT to deal with too. They're a year apart in school and for the last two years he has had the same teachers that his sister had the year before. Even though we start each year with a serious sit down with the teachers explaining that the two of them are very different, he still feels like he's in her shadow and he hates that.
So yes, they tell us he's smart. He can look at his test scores and the kids around him and know he's smart, but sometimes I think he feels like the second best kid on a basketball team where a young Magic Johnson is the #1 kid. You can play the best game of your life and it feels like nobody notices.
mazdeuce wrote: He tests at the very top of his grade. Always has. He's right at the age cutoff for his grade on the young end, which means he's always been the youngest, and that's part of what's going on too with the immaturity in some situations. The big problem with him being the 'smart kid' is his big sister. So my son has THAT to deal with too. They're a year apart in school and for the last two years he has had the same teachers that his sister had the year before.
OK, that explains a lot. Similar to my brother and I. We were 2 years apart and in the advanced classes. But he was as anti-social as I was social. The solution for us was for my mother (who taught in the system) to make sure that we had different teachers.
I have also dealt with this when I was teaching middle school. The school was large enough that we had more than one teacher for a subject at each grade level. We frequently had requests from parents to place siblings in different teacher's classes to avoid the "comparison" problem.
Don't know how large your school system is but that might be one solution. It got a lot better for my brother and I when we finally got to high school.
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