In reply to bobzilla :
Understood. I agree with your point in so far as every energy path has negatives and positives. Ancient man lighting a fire in a cave had to now deal with smoke and getting burned versus issues with sun drying meat. I still think about a former coworker's comment that based on her work as an environmental engineer in the oil industry, nuclear power industry and plastic source chemical mfg, she stated that the least harmful power generation source is nuclear IF (IF IF IF) there were no accidents (which she felt were very much controlled in modern plants) or acts of war or sabotage. The power vs environmental impact of a 21st century modern nuclear power plant would be by far the best path for humanity. She seemed both passionate and defeated about the topic.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
The reason I mentioned for-profit arrays was because of what Mofo was saying about having some non-farmable land. I read that as a moneymaking idea, not a "cut down on my own personal costs" concept. I may have been mistaken.
Yes, sorry- I was commenting on the concept in general, not directed towards you. Making money on solar is much harder than saving money on solar. It all depends on what the utility is willing to pay. Ironically, the higher the energy costs, the more demand there is for cost saving solar, and the less utilities are willing to entertain revenue generation solar.
In reply to Advan046 :
I think she's right. Nuclear power has come a long way since the 60's and 3 mile island. There will always be accidents/tragedies because the world has them but there have been major improvements to fuel usage, depleted rods being recycled etc.
but that's far enough off topic for that.
Boost_Crazy said:
In reply to Keith Tanner :
The reason I mentioned for-profit arrays was because of what Mofo was saying about having some non-farmable land. I read that as a moneymaking idea, not a "cut down on my own personal costs" concept. I may have been mistaken.
Yes, sorry- I was commenting on the concept in general, not directed towards you. Making money on solar is much harder than saving money on solar. It all depends on what the utility is willing to pay. Ironically, the higher the energy costs, the more demand there is for cost saving solar, and the less utilities are willing to entertain revenue generation solar.
I agree that making money is a lot harder than saving money.
But I think it's more than that. I've always been told to follow the money.
Assume 50% of the utilities customers became self sufficient with regard electricity? The utility wouldn't make as much money. Utilities can afford to "donate" money to politicians to have them not support home energy creation. Can individuals match what a utility can spend?
bobzilla said:
In reply to Advan046 :
I think she's right. Nuclear power has come a long way since the 60's and 3 mile island. There will always be accidents/tragedies because the world has them but there have been major improvements to fuel usage, depleted rods being recycled etc.
but that's far enough off topic for that.
Modular nuclear plants are currently in trial. If it works out I believe thst is potentially a very good thing ( assuming due safety is insured )
I did some digging and pricing yesterday.
I put together a system using decent hardware. 10kw worth of inverters from Growwatt, 12kw worth of panels from Canadian Solar, and 30kw worth of LiFe batteries from EG4. Adding some for wiring, panel mounts, and ground mount structure, the total comes up to about $19k.
The Feds have a tax credit of 30% of the gross system cost so that knocks $5700 off the cost. South Carolina also allows a tax credit of 25% of the gross system cost to a maximum of $3500.
After credits, the total system cost is down to under $10k.
That brings the recoupment time frame down to 72 months assuming 1000kWh per month at $.137/kWh. The system has paid for itself in 6 years. Add in the other fees and taxes that add up to another $50/month, and it's paid off even faster. Everything past that is gravy. Even if the panels have to be replaced in 20 years, it still makes economic sense.
With those tax credits, it may make sense to oversize the system some and have plenty of excess power for the future. Another 10k worth of batteries get cheaper when the feds are paying 30% of the cost.
Pretty sure this will be happening when the house is built.
Toyman! said:
I did some digging and pricing yesterday.
I put together a system using decent hardware. 10kw worth of inverters from Growwatt, 12kw worth of panels from Canadian Solar, and 30kw worth of LiFe batteries from EG4. Adding some for wiring, panel mounts, and ground mount structure, the total comes up to about $19k.
The Feds have a tax credit of 30% of the gross system cost so that knocks $5700 off the cost. South Carolina also allows a tax credit of 25% of the gross system cost to a maximum of $3500.
After credits, the total system cost is down to under $10k.
That brings the recoupment time frame down to 72 months assuming 1000kWh per month at $.137/kWh. The system has paid for itself in 6 years. Add in the other fees and taxes that add up to another $50/month, and it's paid off even faster. Everything past that is gravy. Even if the panels have to be replaced in 20 years, it still makes economic sense.
With those tax credits, it may make sense to oversize the system some and have plenty of excess power for the future. Another 10k worth of batteries get cheaper when the feds are paying 30% of the cost.
Pretty sure this will be happening when the house is built.
How much would the price come down without the batteries on that system?
In reply to Toyman! :
Cool! Do a build thread, I'd be interested to hear what other costs show up. That'll feed a 10kW load? I assume that's 30 kWh of battery.
Federal tax credit has gone up, it was 26% in 2021.
In reply to Patientzero :
The batteries are about $10k.
In reply to Keith :
Looks like the rebate has jumped to 30% for 2023 through 2032.
Solar PV systems installed in 2020 and 2021 are eligible for a 26% tax credit. In August 2022, Congress passed an extension of the ITC, raising it to 30% for the installation of which was between 2022-2032. (Systems installed on or before December 31, 2019 were also eligible for a 30% tax credit.) It will decrease to 26% for systems installed in 2033 and to 22% for systems installed in 2034. The tax credit expires starting in 2035 unless Congress renews it.
Hmm that's interesting. I am planning to build a detached shop in the next year here in sunny Georgia, and it will be on the south side of my lot in direct sun. I think I'm in a similar camp as Toyman, where the energy independence piece is very appealing to me. I would like to have backup batteries etc.
If planning a new construction to include solar, are there optimal decisions to be made in regards to roof material, roof shape, construction technique, etc?
Toyman! said:
I did some digging and pricing yesterday.
Do these credits also go to DIY people ?
I know the buy a used EV credit had so many "Got yahs" that you could not buy a Used EV from a non dealer and get the credit :(
In reply to Toyman! :
Excellent Toyman. If those panels are like the panels I've been offered they have a 30 year life with a warranty on how much they are allowed to deteriorate Since you might be getting high heat panels it will be higher deterioration but I believe they are still talking about less than 30% deterioration.
high heat is normally found in desert areas so perhaps South Carolina won't need them?
In reply to Toyman! :
I may need to get your links. If I could do a small system that could run certain circuits (well, water heater, freezer and fridge plus a few outlets for cooking/charging) that would be helpful. Something around 9kW would be sufficient (the size of our current generator).
I'm curious why my inlaws have not added solar to their place yet. They're in Tucson, back of the house faces South, lots of roof space.
I'd put a ground based array right there.
In reply to bobzilla :
I don't know, I agree that it's a perfect application.
It could be they aren't aware of the government subsidies. Or how it would apply. It could be too many quick buck artists have soured them with BS.
Or maybe it's not their forever home? Neighbors or whatever the issue is might have them reconsidering their choices.
In reply to frenchyd :
They're retired, this is their last home until old folks home. Wife and I have considered purchasing it from them in another few years when we are ready to retire. It is a gated community, 55 and older so we aren't old enough yet to live there. The only sibling that could afford to purchase the house won't leave the east coast, the sibling out there already has his own. They've been in this house now almost 10 years.
bobzilla said:
In reply to Toyman! :
I may need to get your links. If I could do a small system that could run certain circuits (well, water heater, freezer and fridge plus a few outlets for cooking/charging) that would be helpful. Something around 9kW would be sufficient (the size of our current generator).
A clarification question here: I don't think you would normally be able to power those with the solar without a grid connection, or a battery system, right? (not that that is you intention)
It's one of the things that irritates me about solar installations is they are not really stand alone without a battery, and the trend (suggestions) seem to be, do not get a battery (they are super expensive of course).
What if I had a generator feeding into the system with the solar attached? Would the generator become the regulator (e.g. if solar is handling all the house power, the generator would essentially be idling). Living in power cutt off potential country, it's a rather important factor.
In reply to Toyman! :
Why off grid instead of grid tied? If you have grid power and your utility does net metering, you could save yourself $10k and a lot of headaches. If the new house doesn't have service and the cost to bring it to the home is high, then I could see off grid making sense.
Vet the manufacturers carefully. That pricing looks really good. Too good. Remember that warranties for solar products are often useless, as manufactures frequently go out of business by the time you need to use it. Buying a better product at the start is usually good insurance. I get nervous when companies market to DIY. Not that DIY is hard to do, especially ground mount- but it tells me that a professional installer would not use their product, whereas a DIY installer might overlook faults due to the low price. This is definitly an area where you want to buy once, cry once. Maybe I'm a bit out of touch because all I see is the business side where most businesses are more risk adverse, but be careful.
aircooled said:
bobzilla said:
In reply to Toyman! :
I may need to get your links. If I could do a small system that could run certain circuits (well, water heater, freezer and fridge plus a few outlets for cooking/charging) that would be helpful. Something around 9kW would be sufficient (the size of our current generator).
A clarification question here: I don't think you would normally be able to power those with the solar without a grid connection, or a battery system, right? (not that that is you intention)
It's one of the things that irritates me about solar installations is they are not really stand alone without a battery, and the trend (suggestions) seem to be, do not get a battery (they are super expensive of course).
What if I had a generator feeding into the system with the solar attached? Would the generator become the regulator (e.g. if solar is handling all the house power, the generator would essentially be idling). Living in power cutt off potential country, it's a rather important factor.
I'm looking at a grid tie-in. I have the generator setup for those circuits with a switch box. I'm just looking to replace the loud noisy gen that has to be pulled out, hooked up and chained down with something that is a switch flip away and can feed partial power to house in normal non-bad weather times. I'm assuming its possible.... ?
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
Grid tie still requires a service with the minimum charges that go with it. The base fee is $30 for solar customers. SC also doesn't do full retail net metering. They do solar choice net metering which is somewhere between retail and wholesale pricing. Net metering is also subject to the whims of the legislature. If the power companies buy enough votes in the legislature the deal could well change.
With an off-grid system, I know exactly what the power bill will be.
Also, just building the system will be a lot of fun. That in itself is worth money.
In reply to bobzilla :
Pricing came from here: https://signaturesolar.com/
The inverters I'm looking at are the Growatt stackable 5000 watt. They can be paralleled up to 6 units for 30kw total wattage.
In reply to bobzilla :
Yeah, that is kind of what I am looking for also. I am guessing the power the panels produce gets stepped up to 120 volts and whatever number of amps the panels can produce. A quick search says the typical installation is around 300 watts (250-400 seems typical). I am sure that is full sun, which results in about 2.5 amps at 120, max. (max will likely be lower, and average will be much lower)
I am guessing that goes into your fuse box somehow. If the external power goes down, clearly the system needs to cut any tie in to the grid (you cannot power the state, and the power company does not want power in a dead grid). Does it keep it's connection to the fuse box though?
If it does keep connection, you have MAX 2.5 amp to draw (which is not a lot). If you pull more, the voltage will likely drop (or cutt off?) which gets bad for electronics. Here are a few charts that are a bit illuminating, starting amp draws can be important also (!). You MIGHT be able to keep a refrigerator running, in the middle of the day, IF it's already on, and never cycles off!
(Geyser!?!? - this chart seems like it is old and would be typical of maybe 20 years ago?, but does show the surge requirements)
In reply to aircooled :
That's why I would want a battery setup as well. The battery takes the surge, the panels just recharge the battery. The well is a 20A service, the waterheater 30A and the fridge is a 15A. I figured with a 10kWh setup and battery that would cover those things for an indefinite amount of time and I still have teh genny.
californiamilleghia said:
Toyman! said:
I did some digging and pricing yesterday.
Do these credits also go to DIY people ?
I know the buy a used EV credit had so many "Got yahs" that you could not buy a Used EV from a non dealer and get the credit :(
I had to do some reading on this one.
There is no verbiage requiring professional installation. The credit is based on Qualified Solar Electric Property costs.
Interestingly enough the credit is also available for solar water heaters, wind energy, biomass, and fuel cell systems.
Toyman, I think the term you're looking for is "grid forming".
