Datsun310Guy wrote:Dr. Hess wrote: Pitt and no debt.X2. If she's that smart it's a given she's going to grad school.
Not necessarily. My daughter was that smart and she was burned out enough that she just couldn't face grad school.
I'm in the Pitt / no debt camp either way. CMU is world-known, but it's not like Pitt is some Podunk U. Both have good reputations. I think the 90% education / 50% cost ratio works very much in her favor here.
cmcgregor wrote: I work in biotech in Cambridge (ie somewhere with a large talent pool). I'm 31. Nobody gives a E36 M3 where my undergrad degree is from. Making connections and working hard in undergrad is important, for sure, and alumni networks can make finding jobs easier, but I don't think it would have made one bit of difference if I had gone to a more or less prestigious school. I wouldn't have met my wife if I went somewhere else, so there's that, but you can't exactly quantify that haha.
Actually, they do care. It's one of the filters used for companies to recruit. Now that you are working, nobody cares. (I recruit)
Which is why I would suggest checking placement, also check graduate school "sends." Really, a degree from Pitt done really well should get someone to most really good grad schools. The trick for that is to get paid to go to grad school....
alfadriver wrote:cmcgregor wrote: I work in biotech in Cambridge (ie somewhere with a large talent pool). I'm 31. Nobody gives a E36 M3 where my undergrad degree is from. Making connections and working hard in undergrad is important, for sure, and alumni networks can make finding jobs easier, but I don't think it would have made one bit of difference if I had gone to a more or less prestigious school. I wouldn't have met my wife if I went somewhere else, so there's that, but you can't exactly quantify that haha.Actually, they do care. It's one of the filters used for companies to recruit. Now that you are working, nobody cares. (I recruit) Which is why I would suggest checking placement, also check graduate school "sends." Really, a degree from Pitt done really well should get someone to most really good grad schools. The trick for that is to get paid to go to grad school....
Agreed. I know of many companies that will only recruit from 4-5 universities for entry level candidates.
mtn wrote: Agreed. I know of many companies that will only recruit from 4-5 universities for entry level candidates.
Unless one of them is Texas A&M, they can go berkeley themselves. Sorry, did I say that outloud?
Avoid debt.
She should continue to negotiate and understand what CMU offers, for some private schools there are key partnered entities that will cover the rest of her costs.
For instance, a coworker went to a very expensive small private school and only received about 60% of the cost from the school's financial aid. But that school had about 70% of their students linked to hiring companies that would pay the rest of your costs to obtain a degree if you come to work for them after graduation. She graduated with only a few thousand in debt mostly due to her housing choices. She worked for the big oil company, I forget which it was and for how long, then she left to do other jobs.
If the CMU guys can't show her a similar path to reduced debt then definitely take the PITT road. The hiring opportunities will still be there and she can go through school with a lot less stress about what happens after she gets her BA. It also leaves more financial room for the advanced degree options.
When I worked as a recruiter we never cared about the school name as long as the program met minimum standard of accredited degree programs. Their performance inside and outside of class were the focus.
Since the Pitt gig is in their honors program, that would be hard to turn down.
Grew up in the area so am familiar with both schools (Aunt taught at Pitt and 2 nieces graduated from there). Unless things have changed,for her chosen major (BioChem), Pitt would be the better choice.
CMU is/was the place for technology/engineering. Pitt with its associations with various medical facilities in the area is/was better for the Biology/Chemistry/Medical fields.
If she's thinking grad school (which her major would suggest) then what she does outside her classes makes a larger difference than the school as long as it's a good school, which Pitt is. She should be looking at undergraduate research opportunities. Ways to prove to prospective grad schools that she has the chops to make it worth their while to pay her way through grad school. The biggest advantage of a full ride is the freedom it gives students to pursue other academic things because the money part is taken care of.
In reply to Dr. Hess:
They're missing out if they're not. (Texas A&M MSME '14)
With a full ride it's possible to really blast through undergrad. Since most employers won't hire for the summer of freshman-sophomore year it's a good idea to take classes then. If you finish in 7 semesters plus a summer you're in a very good place for graduate school.
Pitt.
It's not like it's a D-III school or something.
Unless she's trying to go to work on Wall Street, even then it's not Ivy League, or something, I see no reason to go in debt like that.
My younger cousin went to a very exclusive private college and even with a father who was a CEO of Penguin books, she lives in Manhattan making maybe 60-70% of what I do out here in OK.
Married with roommates, baby sits, gardening co-ops and the like just to get by.
Before writing CMU off, keep in mind that pretty much any prestigious, private university (especially one like CMU, where the focus is on technology/engineering related fields that tend to pay well) is going to have a HUGE endowment. You might not have gotten their best offer yet, so don't be afraid to go back to the negotiating table, or see what other options they may have available for scholarships and such.
I went to a similar school in many ways (private, fairly prestigious, engineering/technology focused, and with a high "list price"), but literally did not know a single person paying full price, usually by a pretty wide margin. Even getting in off the wait list, I got a really generous aid package. So between that and my parents' diligent efforts to pay for as much of their kids' educations as humanly possible, I graduated with a very manageable debt load. In contrast, I know a couple people who are deep into 6 figures with their student loans after attending 2nd rate state universities and a couple years of grad school (not calling Pitt 2nd rate by any means, I mean the lower tier state schools), although granted they weren't on full rides and basically paid for EVERYTHING with their loans.
The other option, which in hindsight I wish I would have given serious consideration to, is doing a few semesters at a community college and transferring as many credits in as possible. It's a good way to get some of your more basic and general classes out of the way and you honestly won't miss much academically from the experience anyways, as these would be your 2-300 seat lectures at even a place like CMU.
All that being said, I'm not sure I'd make the same choice again. I say that based on the career path I've started on, as I honestly don't think my degree gives me any bit of a leg up over, say, a Pitt or PSU grad.
Thanks all, keep it coming.
Listen to some of the quieter voices in this thread.
Furious_E is right about endowments. It's a ginormous mystery that most people know nothing about. My daughter went to one of the best endowed schools in the country, and walked away with a $200K education for under $15K.
Alfa is right about understanding the market opportunities. Dculberson is right about debt sometimes being a valuable tool, and not knowing if your daughter is in the .1%
Bottom line- you need to ask more questions. More nuanced, industry specific questions. Not just listen to the no-debt voices.
I think the question I would be asking of industry professionals is, "What are the 10 year prospects?"
I recently heard that Stanford MBA graduates average $400k after 10 years, while their counterparts from other schools average $84K. That's the power of a name brand. I have no idea if there are similar comparisons in biochem.
Good luck, and congrats!
Don't just look at placements. Look at placements in a given field and at what starting wages. How are those numbers derived? How knowledgeable is the staff at the placement office? How much recruiting is done there? Are there firms that may be looking for internships and will help carry the burden of education? What is the target employer and which school would they prefer?
I have a close friend that has been crippled with debt with a Bio/Chem degree from a prestigious school. The field doesn't really start to pay until you have a graduate degree. Usually unless you want to work in Business/Finance or Law it won't matter if you went to an Ivy league or similar high end school. The people that I know that have done well after college are those that excelled and worked hard in college no matter where they went.
"The average starting salary for people with a bachelor's degree in biochemistry is $45,000; while the average starting salary for those with a master's degree is $60,000. That figure rises to $90,000 for Ph.Ds, according to the National Association of Colleges and Employers' Winter 2011 Salary Survey."
In reply to pinchvalve:
And by the way, congrats to your daughter! That's a hell of a position to be in and a great opportunity either way.
Better grades at Pitt will trump poorer grades at CMU.
The Panthers football team would so crush the Tartans (who's mascot is a Scotty Dog) 
JohnRW1621 wrote: The Panthers football team would so crush the Tartans (who's mascot is a Scotty Dog)
Only someone without Scotties would say something like that.
A year ago, I'd have said Pitt, absolutely. Now I'm not so certain.
We met with a college funding financial counselor a couple months back, reviewing our savings strategies for my 2 boys. We discussed our debt, our equity, laid it all on the table. It was a free consultation aimed at selling services, and it was eye opening.
For a fee, this firm provides career guidance (psych profiles, some coaching - online stuff and in person), standard test taking tutoring, and help with applications for grants/loans. They know what schools have generous endowments and grant programs, and what majors open doors for various career goals. They understand FAFSA and PROFILE. (If you don't, you need to learn). They advise where to save money, where not to. I didn't hire them yet, so I can't tell you anything about the last item.
I never imagined anything but a state school was in reach. What I learned was some private schools, for a good student, will absolutely bend over backwards to help out with the money. It can completely eliminate the private school cost Delta.
I learned that it's imperative to get your documents in on time (many people fill the forms out poorly or incompletely or late.. and they forfeit thousands). And to never trust the college financial aid office. They're sales people, not your friend. NEVER accept the first offer from a private college. Everything is negotiable.
Good luck and congratulations to your daughter. In you situation, with one offer of "free", I'd pay for one of these financial guys to explore all options (beyond Pittsburgh too). Might as well reach for the stars.
In reply to oldopelguy:
Barney the Cairn Terrier protects us for all our immediate threats like squirrels, rabbits and birds that enter the yard.
If it were my daughter, I'd be saying Hail 2 Pitt.
I would go Pitt as well. Much after the first job, It doesn't really matter much. Anything in the pure sciences like that is a graduate degree anyways.
I work for a fortune 50 company and and decently into middle management. Here is the education of the next 5 tiers above me. Boss: BS Texas State (AKA the Texas party school). Sr VP: BS Oklahoma President: BS from the bottom 10% university in Scotland. Senior president: BS from Georgetown and an MBA from no name U. CEO: College drop out.
There are more to getting ahead in the world and coming out of college with no debt is a lot more important imho than a name on a degree. Especially if its a job that typically needs a graduate degree.
Thanks all, very good information to consider. For a little background, she has worked very hard all through high school, taking as many Honors and AP classes as she can, and has maintained 99-100% in all of them. She aced the SAT and the ACT and the subject tests. She did all of this because she wanted to, we never pushed her, only encouraged and supported her. She did this because she wanted to go to a selective-admission school and now she has been accepted and now I have to bring down the reality hammer.
I can't tell her what a CMU degree will do for her, but I am reaching out to alumni and trying to find out. I am researching her potential career paths and trying to put hard numbers to what she faces. I am researching grad school because its one thing I wished I had done. I can tell her a lot about crushing debt but I am trying to do it in a way that doesn't scare her too much. And of course, we are working on reducing that debt wherever possible.
I'd be really curious to see some demographic info on the posters in this thread. Based on some contextual clues, it seems like those who are recent college grads are uniformly against the higher debt, while people with college age kids tend to be more accepting of it under the right circumstance. I find that to be interesting.
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