In reply to STM317: No kids, did a state school for undergrad, and a high end (state school) for grad school (25 years ago), engineering. And I recruit where I work.
In reply to STM317: No kids, did a state school for undergrad, and a high end (state school) for grad school (25 years ago), engineering. And I recruit where I work.
What CMCGREGOR said. Go to undergrad at a solid school debt free (Pitt) and work her tail off. Get into a great schools (Carnegie Melon, Georgetown, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Berkley) grad program.
Undergrad alma matter is for the sports teams. Grad schools are for the paycheck.
In reply to STM317:
40 and just graduated college 2 years ago. Earned 6 digits range with no degree for the last 10 years before graduation. Did first half of my education at Big 12 state school and finished at private DIII school that is a sister school to Notre Dame.
Work in the corporate strategy department for a fortune 50 company.
STM317 wrote: I'd be really curious to see some demographic info on the posters in this thread. Based on some contextual clues, it seems like those who are recent college grads are uniformly against the higher debt, while people with college age kids tend to be more accepting of it under the right circumstance. I find that to be interesting.
26, graduated undergrad 4.5 years ago from a state school that is honestly better than many schools with better reputations. Zero debt out of college, I paid for about 75% of it but my parents had my back if I couldn't pay that much.
I will say that my school has hurt me get in the door at places. I've had to "weasel" my way into some interviews, finding out who I knew that worked there. Had my degree been at a school with a better reputation I would have had more interviews--more money? That is hard to say. But more interviews typically means more offers which typically means more money.
All that being said, PITT carries more weight than my Alma Mater. So a little different conversation here.
I'm now looking at grad school. I'm shooting for the long shots--U of Chicago, Northwestern, Notre Dame. My secondary choices are Wisconsin/Madison, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, and Washington in St. Louis--I don't know which of those have an executive/weekend MBA program, but any that do I'll be considering.
My last tier that I'll be considering are big names that may carry weight locally. DePaul, Loyola, maybe UIC. These are well known around here, but not so much nationally. I'll probably only do these if I can escape with zero debt.
STM317 wrote: I'd be really curious to see some demographic info on the posters in this thread. Based on some contextual clues, it seems like those who are recent college grads are uniformly against the higher debt, while people with college age kids tend to be more accepting of it under the right circumstance. I find that to be interesting.
34, Journalism degree from Oklahoma State graduated Dec 2005. 9 years into my current career (Technical Writing). Just accepted a job that puts me closer to 100k per year than 50k per year.
IMO, names mean so much less these days. I've seen my fellow IUP grads get the nod for teaching positions ahead of Ivy league Penn grads because IUP's education department is regarded as very good. When I picture the days of the school's name getting you in the door, I picture 1964.
Student debt is a real and crippling thing that will be a massive factor. Take what you think you will pay and triple it. There will be months when that payment can't be made. I have friends right now in their mid 40s who borrowed $35k to go to school. They have paid $40k into it over 20 years and still owe $20k. The interest is crippling, the penalties suck.... Getting a student loan is like starting smoking. It will just stick with you for 30 years and you'll end up broke and looking like shoe leather.
Ok, its not that bad, but I have never EVER spoken to anyone who got what they expected from a student loan.
Having said that, I can speak personally for IUP since I went there and began as Bio Education major. At the time (2000 grad) they were still rated very highly for science, specifically Biology, Biochem, Botany, and pre-med. CMU is a wonderful school. I had some friends who went there. Pitt is a solid education. Of the three I would give the nod to CMU... if they still have a highly ranked BioChem department.
The thing is, CMU has more money to throw at the latest/greatest scientific facilities... the question is, DO they? IUP doesn't have quite the disposable capital but they have access to more state and federal grant money. Their Sciences building gets upgraded in big ways, but infrequently. I remember when I was there we got a huge grant from some foundation for the Science building, and here is why I'm glad I chose IUP: They added a wing to the science building. Not some fancy, big architectural showpiece designed to look good in a pamphlet. They built a three-story cement block building that looked more like a High School hallway. They spent the bulk of the money on high-tech classrooms and on equipment to actually teach. We got new microscopes, a scanning E-scope, more radiation equipment, medical training equipment. It focused on providing a very nice quality facility without wasting money, and focused on student education quality. I personally thanked the school president at the time for not blowing the whole wad on a pretty building. I've never been one for school pride, but I was very proud that year.
curtis73 wrote: IMO, names mean so much less these days. I've seen my fellow IUP grads get the nod for teaching positions ahead of Ivy league Penn grads because IUP's education department is regarded as very good. When I picture the days of the school's name getting you in the door, I picture 1964.
Appropriate or not, in a business setting names do very much matter. I can't speak for the sciences where it probably does not as much. When I applied for my first job, there were 300 applicants for 3 positions. It was not a great job, either--just a foot in the door. The hiring manager gave the HR Rep a list of schools to look for, which were all Ivy or similar (i.e. Northwestern and UoChicago). If you didn't have a degree from one of those schools, or a reference, you weren't getting looked at. This was a Fortune 50 company.
curtis73 wrote: Student debt is a real and crippling thing that will be a massive factor. Take what you think you will pay and triple it. There will be months when that payment can't be made. I have friends right now in their mid 40s who borrowed $35k to go to school. They have paid $40k into it over 20 years and still owe $20k. The interest is crippling, the penalties suck.... Getting a student loan is like starting smoking. It will just stick with you for 30 years and you'll end up broke and looking like shoe leather. Ok, its not that bad, but I have never EVER spoken to anyone who got what they expected from a student loan.
I think this depends a lot on a lot of things. I have friends who took out student loans for degrees in education, lived in the nicest (priciest) apartments on campus, had a newish car, and worked maybe one day a week. They got out of school and were eating out regularly, didn't have roommates, when the car went bad they got a new car (Focus, but still). They'll have that debt for 30 years.
On the other hand, another friend had $80k of debt--but that was for a degree that would almost ensure she got a job afterwards (98% of people with that degree from the school had a job in their field within 6 months). She lived with her parents, continued to drive her beater car, didn't eat at restaurants. She paid off the debt within 3 years (got married and moved in with her similarly minded husband after a year at home).
My wife had about $30k of student loans from grad school. They would have been paid off in 3 years from now if we had continued what we're doing; we changed course because we realized we could get forgiveness on them.
Are you getting significant debt on an Underwater Basket Weaving degree? Do you have a consumption problem in general? Do you actually understand interest and the value of a dollar, and how much it costs to live? And they can be refinanced as well.
curtis73 wrote: The thing is, CMU has more money to throw at the latest/greatest scientific facilities... the question is, DO they? IUP doesn't have quite the disposable capital but they have access to more state and federal grant money. Their Sciences building gets upgraded in big ways, but infrequently. I remember when I was there we got a huge grant from some foundation for the Science building, and here is why I'm glad I chose IUP: They added a wing to the science building. Not some fancy, big architectural showpiece designed to look good in a pamphlet. They built a three-story cement block building that looked more like a High School hallway. They spent the bulk of the money on high-tech classrooms and on equipment to actually teach. We got new microscopes, a scanning E-scope, more radiation equipment, medical training equipment. It focused on providing a very nice quality facility without wasting money, and focused on student education quality. I personally thanked the school president at the time for not blowing the whole wad on a pretty building. I've never been one for school pride, but I was very proud that year.
This is all very relevant. You don't want to be in a lab using outdated practices that won't help you. Think about it, if you were learning to be a Mechanic today, would you want to learn how to adjust or rebuild a carb, or how to overhaul an EFI system?
On the demographics note, I was one who favored going to Pitt and saving any debt for a good grad school.
I graduated from Lehigh University in 1986 with a Bachelor of Arts in Architecture. Thanks to being the last child I was debt free from that. I got a 3-year Master's in Architecture from Washington University (STL) in 1989. I was about $15,000 in debt from that (about $30k in today's dollars). I got a 2-year deferment because my field requires an internship, so that was cool. After the deferment it took maybe 8 years to pay off my loans?
Yeah, I only ended up with $25k (2006 dollars) but since I was able to consolidate at a ridiculously low rate, less than 2%, I put it on a 20 year note and only have a $110/month payment. At that interest rate, I'll just keep pumping money into my 401k.
In reply to mtn:
MBA? Michigan/ Ross... Very popular in Chicago. But they don't offer much- when I was getting paid to be a TA here, people I knew paid through the nose for an MBA.
(otherwise, why an MBA? I'd poke my eyes out before I would want to supervise or manage anyone 
)
In reply to curtis73:
Again, names mean a lot. I know that my company uses the school as a filter for people and recruiting.
Just for the opportunity, though. Once in and working, I've never seen the school matter if you do your job really well or not.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to mtn: MBA? Michigan/ Ross... Very popular in Chicago. But they don't offer much- when I was getting paid to be a TA here, people I knew paid through the nose for an MBA. (otherwise, why an MBA? I'd poke my eyes out before I would want to supervise or manage anyone
Career prospects mainly. Most people at my company who move up (not necessarily manage people, but move up) have one. And my degree isn't all that relevant on its own (Mathematics).
Michigan is on the list as well. Either low on the "A" list or high on the "B" list.
I had a similar issue as a high school senior, only on a smaller scale. Pretty close to a full ride with a state school vs. a generous, but less comprehensive offer from a more prestigious private school. (Not on the level of CMU, but one with a very strong local reputation) The deciding point for me was not so much the immediate financials, but the atmosphere and expectations. The private school had a lot more "extras" which were, in the long run, going to cost a lot more than just extra tuition. Students were required to live on campus, required to study abroad for at least one semester and discouraged, if not prohibited, from having outside employment during school. The state school was a lot more flexible. I was able to work part time during school and full time during summers/breaks. In the end, the work I did during college (office support work for the county prosecutor) helped me WAY more than the name on the degree when it came to launching a career and not only was I not broke or in debt, I actually had a little bit of savings.
Here's another tip for you: Even though she has a full ride lined up, still encourage her to qualify for other scholarships. I had a couple of other local scholarships that I never ended up needing during undergrad. Each year, I'd send them a letter thanking them for the scholarship and notifying them I didn't have any financial needs that year. Then, when I started graduate college, I went back to them and said "remember that scholarship money I didn't use?" I ended up getting a fair amount of help with the cost of graduate school. It seems like its WAY easier to find scholarships as a high school student than as a college grad.
Congrats by the way. This is a great problem to have.
I did a physics degree at CMU and ended up with debt equivalent to about 1 year's tuition, room and board. I found it pretty easy to get work afterwards, and it is pretty well paying work. Of course, it is computer programming, so there is that.
I'd say it depends a little on her ambition. If she wants to go the academic route, keeping debt to a minimum is very important. If she wants to go the corporate route, the fancy name is pretty helpful. The CMU brand also facilitates career switching, provided you want to switch to something computer-based.
Comparing and contrasting the students I knew at both schools, I think CMU works you harder and you might (depending on personality) learn a bit more. Certainly you learn how to grind it out and get it done, or you fail out... Pitt students seemed to be a little less buried, but I'm sure it varies by program. Pitt is huge, after all.
Flight Service wrote: What CMCGREGOR said. Go to undergrad at a solid school debt free (Pitt) and work her tail off. Get into a great schools (Carnegie Melon, Georgetown, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Berkley) grad program. Undergrad alma matter is for the sports teams. Grad schools are for the paycheck.
This is pretty much my take, if I were redo my undergrad experience
mtn wrote: This is all very relevant. You don't want to be in a lab using outdated practices that won't help you. Think about it, if you were learning to be a Mechanic today, would you want to learn how to adjust or rebuild a carb, or how to overhaul an EFI system?
Good analogy. At IUP I felt like I was learning how to engineer state-of-the-art EFI systems in a dirt floor 2-car garage with the best equipment - which I prefer to learning how to rebuild a carb in a multi-million dollar facility.
In reply to pinchvalve:
I think focusing too much on the debt will lead you down the wrong path in terms of what to do in the current moment. As many have said:
Fight hard then if CMU throws their hands up and says this is it, then make the decision.
I think the biggest factor driving which will be the "best" decision is the ratio of graduates to entry level jobs in the field the student wants to work. If there are 300 qualified applicants for 1 opening the school will matter, but the reality is that is probably the wrong field to work towards for that reason. If there are 5 openings for every graduate, the school will not matter and finding viable employment will probably never be an issue for one's entire career. Education is an investment, make the investment that provides the best return on that investment. Pick a field that has plenty of opportunity and then the worst case scenario is where you go to school will only matter in getting the first job and probably not even then.
I went to college a few years later than my peers and paid for it all myself. Got an AS at a community college, transferred to a state school with a really good engineering department (consistently ranked within the top 10 nationally in that field) and got my BS, stayed 2 semesters towards an MS (took all the coursework and did not do a thesis) because an MS was required to be considered for the type of position I wanted. I had no trouble finding a good job doing what I wanted to do coming out of college despite the fact that I didn't finish my MS. Worked my butt off to do well academically and worked 2 part-time jobs during school. Wound up with $24k in student loans (mostly subsidized) and paid them off in 4.5 years. Have had 3 employers and now 7 different jobs in 20 years and I don't think where I went to school had any particular influence on me getting any of those jobs. How I presented myself before and during the interviews, my references and business contacts, and my work ethic got my foot in the door and sealed the deal for each one of them.
Great advice everyone, a million thanks. The plot thickened last night as she was accepted into Case Western Reserve University with a scholarship and a grant. That puts it into the middle, a bit of student debt, but very manageable.
To me, it has a prestige that is equal to CMU, but they are MUCH more focused on research and BioChem, which is where she wants to end up. I think the CMU name is great and you can do a lot, provided that you are in computers or engineering (or theater). For BioChem, not so much. CWRU is tied into the Cleveland Clinic and other hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and research facilities. It's 2.5 hours away and while there are Browns Fans there, Cleveland has a lot to offer and the campus is nice.
The main thing that I have to overcome is that CMU was her dream. She has an idealized, 17-year old's view of CMU and life at CMU. Her head agrees that the other options make more sense, but her heart is still at CMU.
We are speaking with their financial aid office to see if there is any wiggle room or of they might match the offer from CWRU. I am OK with some debt for her if she really wants to go to CMU, but not a soul-crushing, never-ending, mountain of debt.
CWRUs own hospital is called University Hospital. It is only two blocks away from The Cleveland Clinic and The Clinic is rated the 2nd or 3rd hospital in the entire US. Would seem like a solid place for Bio.
University Hospital has a great reputation in Cancer and Childrens hospital.
z31maniac wrote:STM317 wrote: I'd be really curious to see some demographic info on the posters in this thread. Based on some contextual clues, it seems like those who are recent college grads are uniformly against the higher debt, while people with college age kids tend to be more accepting of it under the right circumstance. I find that to be interesting.34, Journalism degree from Oklahoma State graduated Dec 2005. 9 years into my current career (Technical Writing). Just accepted a job that puts me closer to 100k per year than 50k per year.
$75,000.01? 
Oh you didn't say (or I missed it) BioChem.
Her undergrad is just going to be on the resume to get her into Grad school.
Change your focus on where she wants to go to grad school and find where they accept high number of undergrads from.
Choose the lowest debt of those.
I don't know much about biochem.
Is she looking for a job afterwards or another degree?
If the former, I would hunt around and find some recruiters/HR folks in that field and ask them how much the name of the school matters. They know better than we do. Also bear in mind that the kid isn't. While your job is absolutely to guide and help her, pretty soon she's going to be making decisions like this on her own, and you may want to chat with her about this aspect which she may not have considered yet.
Flight Service wrote:z31maniac wrote:$75,000.01?STM317 wrote: I'd be really curious to see some demographic info on the posters in this thread. Based on some contextual clues, it seems like those who are recent college grads are uniformly against the higher debt, while people with college age kids tend to be more accepting of it under the right circumstance. I find that to be interesting.34, Journalism degree from Oklahoma State graduated Dec 2005. 9 years into my current career (Technical Writing). Just accepted a job that puts me closer to 100k per year than 50k per year.
HA! Not sure, with bonuses and the chunk of stock I received yesterday that vests in a few years.
Congrats to OP on another acceptance. It sounds like "middle" option would be best for her career, but I also thought I knew everything at 17 as well.
Pitt is a great school as is Carnegie Melon. The students that I work with BioChem degree's move on to their Masters or doctoral program. If she chooses this path she could go to a more prestigious graduate school and maybe work towards a GE which would pay for her grad school.
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