In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
For engine updated cars, the vehicle must meet emissions specs for the drivetrain. So, for the purposes of emissions, your car would have to meet the same specs as a '98 Camaro or whatever the drivetrain donor was. If the swap was done in California, a referee station SHOULD have detailed this. I think.
If there was a loophole for fuel type swap, then it goes by whatever the loophole's wording is.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
Illegal if anyone notices. In CA 1997 and older diesels are never inspected at all, so people do stuff like that with them and unless they annoy the cops enough to look closer at the car nobody will ever notice even though it doesn't actually meet the emissions standards. To do it legally in CA the engine would have to be stock (or have emissions legal parts for the car it came from) and be inspected and given special approval. Then it would have to be tested ever two years, at a station which can test pre 2000 cars, which is getting increasingly uncommon.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
It's not an offical loophole, they just never inspect pre 1998 diesels in CA.
In reply to Tk8398 :
Loosen up a couple rockers so it clatters and hope nobody notices?
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
It's basically the "only break one law at a time" idea, if you don't otherwise attract attention it then you probably never have to worry about it.
Tk8398 said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
It's basically the "only break one law at a time" idea, if you don't otherwise attract attention it then you probably never have to worry about it.
Yes. That worked just great until people made a sport out of proudly making as much visible pollution as possible.
MrJoshua said:Should there not be a burden of proof on the agency that they aren't wasting exorbitant amounts of money chasing insignificant contributors to the overall emissions output of automobiles?
<Graham Chapman>"Well, where's the fun in that??"</Graham Chapman>
I shouldn't have mentioned CA. I'm not in CA. It was intended to be a generic question about the federal law.
Still unclear under the Federal law whether it should be measured against the VIN number or against the drivetrain. (Engine came from a truck, but had been modified)
BTW, I'm in an area that doesn't do emissions testing.
In my mind, it took an old diesel off the road. I'm sure that's not how the Feds look at it.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
It follows the engine. If you do an engine swap it has to be newer than the chassis it's going into, you can't back date an engine. You also have to put everything that engine/car had into the new chassis. So when I dropped the 2002 Camaro SS LS1 into my 1989 944 Turbo, I had to bring over the motor, egr (luckily 02 didn't have it), secondary air pump, evac stuff, OBD2 port and check engine light, etc, etc, etc...
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:I shouldn't have mentioned CA. I'm not in CA. It was intended to be a generic question about the federal law.
Still unclear under the Federal law whether it should be measured against the VIN number or against the drivetrain. (Engine came from a truck, but had been modified)
BTW, I'm in an area that doesn't do emissions testing.
In my mind, it took an old diesel off the road. I'm sure that's not how the Feds look at it.
Federally speaking, it's probably not kosher. The last paragraph I'm quoting covers your specific situation a bit. In general it sounds like you'd have to meet the emissions rules for the chassis rather than the engine since you're going from diesel to gas. But I also think the HP tuners would mean it's not a "certified configuration". Basically, you'd probably have to go through the full battery of emissions tests (not just an annual tailpipe sniffer) in order to prove that it's cleaner than the stock diesel. But that might not be too difficult honestly.
I believe the following is still current:
https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/engswitch_0.pdf
"EPA received many questions regarding the application of this law to a situation where one engine is removed from a vehicle and another engine is installed in its place. EPA's policy regarding "engine switching" is covered under the provisions of Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. lA(Attachment 1). This policy states that EPA will not consider any modification to a "certified configuration" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected. In many cases, proper emission testing according to the Federal Test Procedure would be necessary to make this determination.
A "certified configuration" is an engine or engine chassis design which has been "certified" (approved)by EPA prior to the production of vehicles with that design. Generally, the manufacturer submits an application for certification of the designs of each engine or vehicle it proposes to manufacture prior to production. The application includes design requirements for all emission related parts, engine calibrations, and other design parameters for each different type of engine (in heavy-duty vehicles), or engine chassis combination (in light-duty vehicles). EPA then "certifies" each acceptable design for use,in vehicles of the upcoming model year. For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty engine into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle manufacturer.
The most common engine replacement involves replacing a gasoline engine in a light-duty vehicle with another gasoline engine. Another type of engine switching which commonly occurs, however, involves diesel powered vehicles where the diesel engine is removed and replaced with a gasoline engine. Applying the above policy, such a replacement is legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configuration is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis. If the vehicle chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a conversion could be done legally."
So if I were to, theoretically, take an LS based engine and decide that the TCU is worth less than a paperweight but it can't be disconnected from the ECU without putting everything in limp mode, and I were then to decide that my solution was to buy a carburetor conversion kit.... The EPA comes down on Holley with a fine and walks away with a nice little check and my buyer info? I think I'm with gearheadE30 on this, the way of the future is be happy with what they give you and start talking about "instant torque" constantly with your crossfit group. Overly dramatic? Maybe but for someone that was really just starting to get into cars at this level there's not a lot to be excited about while I wait for my Teslafication and "instant torque!" talking points powerpoint.
In reply to Error404 :
It's worth restating that this is not a new rule. It's been on the books for decades now. In the past, the EPA has more or less left car modders to their own devices while dealing with bigger fish to fry. It's just that people have been abusing the rule in more and more damaging ways, while other bad things have simultaneously been cleaning up their acts. The nail that stands out gets hammered.
People have been doing compliant engine swaps for a very long time. People have been modifying their power trains in compliant ways in CA this entire time. Car culture still thrives there.
If you really want to try your hand at tuning, then you're free to dig in and test/tune until your desired combo meets emissions tests. That might give some perspective about how good power train engineers have gotten in the last 15 years. (Alfa is always encouraging people that like this stuff to submit resumes and get paid well to tweak tunes to their hearts content) We can now have totally compliant vehicles from each of the big 3 with 700+hp or trucks that can tow 30k lbs that anybody can buy. I completely understand wanting to modify an older vehicle, but new stuff is crazy good, while being many times cleaner. A big part of that is the 45 year old regulation that people are still getting in a tizzy over.
In all my meetings, the EPA has always said that enforcement at the individual level is the responsibility of the states. So even if Holley gets nailed for selling carburetor kits, the EPA won't be coming after you.
I understand both of your points and don't want to come off as argumentative, it's just a bummer. I understand that these rules have been on the books for decades and a lot slid by due to selective enforcement, so this is only new in the degree of enforcement. I get it. I get that you can do compliant engine swaps, not gonna argue that and make a fool of myself, but it takes some fun out of daydreaming about picking up an old Apache and dropping something newer in it. Maybe I need to adjust my expectations, certainly with the way things are moving forward. Like gearheadE30 said, maybe the answer is to buy something new and put on a happy face with what the factory gives me. Maybe I need a different hobby, because the automotive industry and regulators aren't going to change just to suit me.
Shoot, the new stuff is better in every way. Especially size. And it's more generically appealing, always a plus. So bigger (read better), less stylistically polarizing, and better in every measurable and compliant.
In reply to Error404 :
That is basically where I am at - it sucks, but playtime is over.
If new is the only answer from here on out, it'd be nice if someone who didn't make cars that audibly rust would make a nice sub-2500lb car.
It sucks, but as a whole, we had it coming.
A few years ago when washington was still putting cars on the rollers to emission test I asked about testing my turboLS swapped '91 trans am as a newer car. EG; hooking to the OBDII port and checking all the systems. I don't think the guy knew what I was talking about because he said that since the engine came from an Escalade I'd have to register the car as an '04 Escalade. I'm no expert but I don't think that's how it works...
In reply to iansane :
It wouldn't have to register as an '04 Escalade, It would have to meet the emission requirements of an 04 Escalade. On his end in the computer system for testing he probably has to enter it as an '04 Escalade which of course won't play nicely with the DMV setup, which knows the vehicle is a trans am. There's a solution that the DMV or his superior would know and setup.
In reply to Error404 :
New stuff IS better in every way - except the main one that matters in my case. Cost. My truck (yes, it is used for truck stuff. F350's are not good cars) my commuter car, and my wife's car are all paid for. I still make slightly less than I have to pay out each month (gov. did not allow me free rent). If I sold all three to pay down a loan on one new car, the payment would still be more than I could ever pay. Yes, people on welfare do drive new cars all the time, but I make too much to be allowed on welfare.
Any new car is way out of my reach.
In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
Oh yeah, I realize it just needs to meet the qualifications of the escalade. I just thought it was funny how he was dead set on registering the car as an SUV. Like, in his mind that was a solution.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to Error404 :
That is basically where I am at - it sucks, but playtime is over.
If new is the only answer from here on out, it'd be nice if someone who didn't make cars that audibly rust would make a nice sub-2500lb car.
Yup. I'm most intrigued by the 400Z but that's only because I don't look at interior pics. It's aesthetically pleasing from the outside and that's probably about as good as it's gonna get for me. Or quit drawing it out and, when the time comes, just buy an appliance where the numbers fit. Or lease it and send one off to the green scrapyard in the sky every few years. Ehhh... I'm done with this thread before I go completely melancholy over something that I can't change. Y'all have fun now, ya hear?
Maybe if I listened to less Survivor and Boston and more T-Swifty I'd start to find new cars less bleh. Maybe that's crazy. Maybe I'm crazy? Eh, who knows
Sheesh. Drama. You can still modify older cars. You just have to do it properly.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I'd like to find an EO'd... anything? for any of my older cars. (Newest is an '06, then thr next newest is an '86 and it just devolves from there)
In reply to Error404 :
For us non social media types, what is a t-swifty?
In reply to Keith Tanner :
On a serious question, you mentioned a EO a couple times. What is that? An exemption of some type, judging from context?
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