Quake in Japan

This thread went from "interesting" to "this sucks and i'm outta here" in no time.

Laters!

alfadriver wrote: Go look up the Idaho National Lab- read what they have been doing for the last 60 years.

I'm no expert at this stuff, but my wife actually is. She was at the Idaho National Lab last summer teaching. I should probably get her take on all of this because she knows this stuff like you and I know engines.

The thing that really bothers me is that our media is completely off-base on this stuff (I've seen the "Partial Meltdown!!!!! line since day 1, ugh!), so we have to go to outside sources for less biased reporting (though it's still there, the BBC had a pretty cheap shot at the end of most of it's articles, something along the lines of "Is this really the time to think about nuclear energy for the UK?"). It's hard to get a feel for what's actually happening as the Japanese hate to admit failures and the rest of the world hates to tell a straight story.

Give it a rest already you wankers. Sheesh.

Good luck to the Japanese with what will be an incredibly difficult recovery.

the nuclear plant is so far down on the list of worries right now...

madmallard wrote: the nuclear plant is so far down on the list of worries right now...

It won't be if it releases radiation all over and/or goes ka-blooey.

That's the problem with massive natural disasters though, there's so much devestation that it's hard to figure out what to do and in what order.

Yes, really... look what it is doing to the stock market Apparently some idiot in Europe, who knows nothing specific about the situation, made a comment that it looks to be "out of control". Wild over reaction follows.

An interesting story is developing with the 50 workers who are still at the plant trying to get things under control. You have to wonder how much they will sacrifice to that end. Knowing a bit about the Japanese, it might be an awful lot.

It looks like they are about to get power back to the plant (new power line), so that is good news.

The "faceless 50" as the NYT has called them, have been joined by about 160 others. However, while they were the only 50 there, CNN just interviewed one of their wifes. She got an emai from himl: "I may not be home for a few days."

Much admiration for the people not rioting, no pilfering of shops/stores, and their overall look at times of difficulty with dignity, humility, and putting others first.

There is much to learn from the Japanese culture and the way it faces such adversity. It's not without its' darker sides, but the societal core values are on prominent display.

I think every single worker who fights to contain the leaks deserves national recognition and more than a few deserve national hero status. I bet they get it, too.

triumph5 wrote: The "faceless 50" as the NYT has called them, have been joined by about 160 others. However, while they were the only 50 there, CNN just interviewed one of their wifes. She got an emai from himl: "I may not be home for a few days." Much admiration for the people not rioting, no pilfering of shops/stores, and their overall look at times of difficulty with dignity, humility, and putting others first.

Damn Japanese constraint and dignity.

Best explanation I've seen yet:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12726591

Does this jive with what you are saying alfadriver?

I did read another BBC story saying that the pool with the fuel rods from Reactor 4 was completely dry.

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12732015

What harm do these radioactive materials cause?

Radioactive iodine could be harmful to young people living near the plant. After the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear disaster there were some cases of thyroid cancer as a result. However, people who are promptly issued with iodine tablets ought to be safe. Radioactive caesium accumulates in soft tissue, while plutonium accumulates in the bone and liver. Radioactive nitrogen decays within seconds of its release, and argon poses no threat to health.

That sounds painful. I hope the workers are wearing their NBC suits and taking the safety steps.

The thyroid is a magnet for iodine. I work in a facility that manufactures a medical device that uses radioactive iodine. We have to get our thyroid checked periodically to make sure we haven't picked up any.

Some more positive thinking- we need to raise a collective saki (sp?) to the engineers and architects who designed a lot of the bigger structures.

Remember, a lot of the video we saw of the tsunami was taken from a high point in a building. So these buildings first withstood one of the most powerful earthquakes in the last 100 years, they also then survived the innudation of a tsunami. Hard to estimate the number of lives these structures saved. Many of them may not be structurally sound anymore, but the core requirement is to be strong enough to save lives- and many of the big structures did that.

These guys deserve a lot of credit.

Javelin wrote: Best explanation I've seen yet: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12726591 Does this jive with what you are saying alfadriver? I did read another BBC story saying that the pool with the fuel rods from Reactor 4 was completely dry.

Of what happened, it's exacty what I'm reading, too.

This is a pretty descriptive page- lots of good details on the specifics how the reactor work, and how they are designed to withstand many failures. http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/

What was really horrific about Chernobyl was it was basically a dirty bomb. (policy wise, it was worse that nobody was informed about it, the west didn't find out until reactor workers coming to work were showing very high amounts of radiation on them, far more than the ones leaving...)

The big explosion actually broke the reactor housing, and then the resulting very hot fire was able to carry out highly radioactive parts of the reactor high up in the atmosphere.

For that to happen here- I'm not really sure how that would happen.

Now, if the guts of the reactor WAS spread out over a small area, that would be pretty horrific.

But what I hear reporting, even at the worst, the reactor is failing as it's intended to, and the last line of defense is to contain a full meltdown in a catcher. It wont be pretty, and will be a very expensive and time consuming clean up.

the way I had it explained, theres the core housing the actual reaction, then there's the core casing which is 6" thick stainless steel, designed to withstand pressures of at least 50 times normal operation.

and then its all either sitting on or encased in concrete, all of which have strategic piping to push coolant thru without the core being exposed to open air.

Anybody eat fish? Might wannna switch to chicken .

A lot of the mainstream media reporting has made it sound considerably worse than it is, too. One article on Yahoo said that the #2 reactor had its containment vessel breached (not quite - it appears a steam pipe outside the vessel itself started leaking) and that there was a 26 foot hole in the side of reactor #4 (reality: There was a 26 foot hole in the side of a sheet metal building that sits on top of reactor #4).

So you've got a lot of reporters who either think they need to simplify what's going on because the general public won't understand the fine details, or the reporters themselves don't understand it. The result is reporting that, instead of accurately describing how bad the situation is, makes it sound ten times worse.

Another thought - if the Japanese built their reactors to the same designs and safety standards (or lack thereof) that the Russians used, we'd already have had a Chernobyl type disaster happen, probably within 2 days of the tsunami.

alfadriver wrote: ...Now, if the guts of the reactor WAS spread out over a small area, that would be pretty horrific....

And I wonder if this is even possible with the current situation. If the core were to totally melt down into a pile of really hot metal, as long as they don't dump a bunch of water on it it should just sink into the catcher (I am guessing, I don't know the specifics of this scenario).

As noted, the report of a cracked primary containment is actually a crack in the primary containment's condensation piping. Although it IS in the primary containment, it is ENTIRELY different then what a crack in the primary containment implies. Doesn't make as good of headlines though.

Someone (who knows what really is going on) really needs to inform the public as to what would happen if it did actually melt down. The assumption now (at least what the news is implying) seems to be a repeat of Chernobyl, which appears to be basically impossible.

It looks like our gubment is a bit more worried about this now.

U.S. Officials Alarmed By Japanese Handling of Nuclear Crisis

""It would be hard to describe how alarming this is right now," one U.S. official told ABC News. "

""They need to stop pulling out people—and step up with getting them back in the reactor to cool it. There is a recognition this is a suicide mission," the official said. "

"The U.S. official says experts believe there is a rupture in two, maybe three of the six reactors at the Fukushima power plant, but as worrisome is the fact that spent fuel rods are now exposed to the air, which means that substances like cesium, which have a long half-life, could become airborne.

"That could be deadly for decades," the official said. "

God the amount of hysteria and misinformation surrounding this is frustrating.

As someone with family in the Tokyo area, I really don't appreciate the hype and hysteria. I want to know what is actually happening and what danger it presents to my family. If you listen to the American media you could be convinced the world is ending today. The problems is the world has been ending everday for the last 20 years on CNN and ABC.

I am lucky to have access to NHK. It may not be the most unbiased source, but they do manage to keep hysteria in check with their reporting.

I could actually be convinced that funding NPR was worthwhile if they were able to escape the hysteria...

I think one of the big concerns now is the spent fuel that's not in the 6" stainless core. My understanding is that it's in an open pool inside the now destroyed building.

Video of some of the damage. Looking at this I think the buildings are/were more than just "steel sheds".

Yes, but functionally they are "steel sheds". They really are for no purpose other then to keep the weather out, just like a shed.

The pools are a concern, but fortunately they fuel there is already degraded (spent, but still hot of course), and they should be pretty easy to fill, being in the open to the outside now. So the blown up "sheds" is actually a good thing. (glass half full kind of thing)

... waiting for deadly cloud to come over Friday... why do I have the feeling it will contain about the same amount of radiation you get by being at the beach for a day...