Random musings on law and order. (please don't flounder this)

By nature, this thread may end up floundering.  Please do not lead us down that route

I was reading about a website where the guy is selling 3D printed drop-in auto-sear units for AR15s to convert them to full auto.  The FBI is investigating, and he is probably going to end up buried underneath the jail.  

I, for one, am fascinated by this.  Mainly because of the use of 3D printing and how easily it gets around the law.  It isn't something that is going to come up often, but when it does hoo boy does it.  (I'll also admit to being fascinated at how easily full-auto can be done, I never looked into it but I always thought it was a more complicated mechanism than this)

https://www.wired.com/story/boogaloo-boys-3d-printed-machine-gun-parts/

The FBI says Watson attempted to disguise the devices as wall hooks for keys or coats. Remove an extraneous bracket from the "wall hooks," and the remaining small plastic piece functions perfectly as a "drop-in auto sear," a simple but precisely shaped rifle part that can convert a legal AR-15 into an illegal, fully automatic machine gun.

If you read through the article, it sounds fairly obvious that the law doesn't really know how to go about changing this, and that seems to be fairly common to me.

There is typically a lag between technology and the laws that govern that tech.  (The internet being a necessity to modern life in America and the lack of laws surrounding protections for it being the biggest one I can think of. )  But what's the solution to that?  How does the law catch up to tech?  How does it do so without infringing upon the citizens it is supposed to protect?

Just thought it might be interesting to hear the thoughts of some of you guys on this.

Couldn't a really good gunsmith with access to a machine shop do the same thing by hand? 

In reply to Snowdoggie :

I don't even think you'd need a good gunsmith.  If you google "Drop in auto sear" there are tons of pictures of them being made with coat hangers, random chunks of metal, all sorts of stuff.  

From what I can tell of the law, and what the article says, it isn't illegal to own specs or part files or anything; but once you actually make one the feds show up with an unhappy face.

Go read some of Corey Doctorow's books for insight into where this all ends. Been reading his stuff long enough and watching the technology develop in lockstep to the point where it is scary.

Much like Star trek where all the technology has actually become real, Corey foretells the social aspects of where this revolution in manufacturing  all ends.

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to Snowdoggie :

I don't even think you'd need a good gunsmith.  If you google "Drop in auto sear" there are tons of pictures of them being made with coat hangers, random chunks of metal, all sorts of stuff.  

From what I can tell of the law, and what the article says, it isn't illegal to own specs or part files or anything; but once you actually make one the feds show up with an unhappy face.

Amateur gunsmiths working with cheap materials is kind of scary all by itself. Kind of like hiring some drunk off the street to fix your brakes with whatever he could find in your garbage can. 

Its not getting around the law. 3D printing full auto conversions is still massively unlawful. Its just become harder to trace things like this.

I don't think any law will truly prevent this type of stuff from happening.  I do however think that the most important step would be getting people that truly understand the in and outs in position to advise on these things.  Not a bunch of career lawyers/politicians.

Same goes for governing the tech industry.  

Snowdoggie said:

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to Snowdoggie :

I don't even think you'd need a good gunsmith.  If you google "Drop in auto sear" there are tons of pictures of them being made with coat hangers, random chunks of metal, all sorts of stuff.  

From what I can tell of the law, and what the article says, it isn't illegal to own specs or part files or anything; but once you actually make one the feds show up with an unhappy face.

Amateur gunsmiths working with cheap materials is kind of scary all by itself. Kind of like hiring some drunk off the street to fix your brakes with whatever he could find in your garbage can. 

So you've seen my Challenge cars.

Stampie (FS) said:

Snowdoggie said:

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to Snowdoggie :

I don't even think you'd need a good gunsmith.  If you google "Drop in auto sear" there are tons of pictures of them being made with coat hangers, random chunks of metal, all sorts of stuff.  

From what I can tell of the law, and what the article says, it isn't illegal to own specs or part files or anything; but once you actually make one the feds show up with an unhappy face.

Amateur gunsmiths working with cheap materials is kind of scary all by itself. Kind of like hiring some drunk off the street to fix your brakes with whatever he could find in your garbage can. 

So you've seen my Challenge cars.

Spitting coke all over the screen laughing....

Full auto is very simple and you can do that with simple tools.  Then again, the drug problems in our country seem to suggest that making meth is pretty simple, too. Simple, in this case, is still a very bad idea.

If the zombie apocalypse has already happened and you are building from scratch, full auto is easier to make than semi-auto.

In regards to the feds, owning such a part, and something that you can put the part in (even if modifications to either would be required), qualifies as intent to complete the assembly and pretty much carries the same penalty as completing the assembly.

Patientzero said:

I don't think any law will truly prevent this type of stuff from happening.  I do however think that the most important step would be getting people that truly understand the in and outs in position to advise on these things.  Not a bunch of career lawyers/politicians.

Same goes for governing the tech industry.  

I think this is the only real answer, in the long run

The Feds cannot stop the illegal drug importation trade. 

Outside the 3D technology to print auto-sears does anyone think the Feds would be any more successful stopping an illegal weapon trade?      

And if semi-auto becomes just as hard to get as full auto, with similar penalties for failing to comply with registration laws, does anyone think people willing to break the law will stop at semi-auto for their entrepreneurship of black market weapons?      

The only thing that really keeps the peace in the US is the fact that most of want to be peaceful, some would like to break the peace but don't because of prison, and a few just do it anyway.   My fear is more and more are willing to do it anyway regardless of penalties.  

So you have an item, which is illegal, but people want it. So some industrious individuals are willing to provide it for a tidy profit. Whether it is a bottle of booze or a bag of drugs or a banned gun part, it's nothing new. This guy was to brazen about advertising his new found adventure in entrepreneurship and now he's going to pay for his bravado. Others will be lined up to fill the hole in the market. It's a tale as old as time.

Appleseed said:

Its not getting around the law. 3D printing full auto conversions is still massively unlawful. Its just become harder to trace things like this.

It's not like they will be going door to door looking for illegal weapons, but if you get caught committing a crime with one, they will throw the book at you. Hard. 

Don't even think about a plea bargain. You are doing hard time. 

Just because technology makes it easier to break the law does not mean you are not breaking the law. 

Just because you aren't out robbing banks does not make you immune either. Let's say you keep your illegal automatic in the car for protection. You end up getting into a road rage incident. He pulls his, you pull yours. A bystander gets shot in the crossfire. Guess who goes to jail longer? 

In reply to Snowdoggie :

Hell, you don't even have to be using the gun.  If they search your house for tax documents and they find it in your possession you're done.

Isn't this kinda like the "this is a fuel filter/compressor muffler/etc that just happens to have a machined cap with a smooth hole on one end and the other end just happens to have the same threads as 'solvent trap' barrel adapters but it's totally not a silencer and we won't be responsible for what you screw it onto?"

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

I don't think so, just because silencers are legal at a federal level and these are not.  I could be wrong though, I'm not 100% familiar with any of the cases you're referencing.

Look at what the Feds did to David Koresh just for buying and making illegal weapons to store in a closet for ..... Armageddon..... World War III....target shooting with the Presbyterians...whatever. 

They killed him, his friends, some children, ran a tank over his restored 67 El Camino, killed all his pet Malamute puppies, burned down his compound. Etc. 

I would stay far, far away from illegal weapons if I were you. 

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

I don't think so, just because silencers are legal at a federal level and these are not.  I could be wrong though, I'm not 100% familiar with any of the cases you're referencing.

They're legal with a tax stamp in most states (sorry CA) and very illegal without. 

Mr_Asa said:

Patientzero said:

I don't think any law will truly prevent this type of stuff from happening.  I do however think that the most important step would be getting people that truly understand the in and outs in position to advise on these things.  Not a bunch of career lawyers/politicians.

Same goes for governing the tech industry.  

I think this is the only real answer, in the long run

100% agree. Tech moves way faster than the legal system and it would behoove us to have people who actually know what they're talking about help write new laws and adjust old ones to keep up. Remember those ridiculous "you wouldn't steal a car" ads about pirating movies and music? That didn't change anything. What did was iTunes selling songs for $0.99.

A few things.

First, "drop in auto sear" is a misnomer, unless your lower receiver is milled to accept an auto sear, nothing is going to "drop in" and magically make it full auto. 

Second, no full auto firearm is legal to own or transfer that's not already on the registry, that was manufactured after 1986 (Hughes Amendment) unless you have a SOT license to manufacture, that you pay for annually, and are scrutinized thoroughly by alpahbet.gov regularly.  To clarify, if you're a regular American, in a free state, with a clean background check, and approved for a Form 3, if the full auto firearm was made after '86, and isn't on the registry, you can't legally own it, $200 tax stamp or not.

Third, there's nothing illegal about making "coat hangers" what's illegal is the intent.  These were manufactured with the intent of breaking the law.

In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :

It was "you wouldn't download a car"

Which, at the time, was berking stupid cause you couldn't.  Now however, I would 100% download a car.

The internet is disruptive and challenges existing laws?  Who da thunk?

(Napster, Uber, AirBnB, Netflix, Skype, adult oriented sites, Vine, BitCoin, Amazon...)

In reply to bigdaddylee82 :

I have friends in the business (legitamately), you've pretty well summed it up.

I've got a novel idea that does away with maybe tge majority of criminals. Wait for it......