Sprockets: Starter sport bike?

neon4891 wrote: I miss the UJMs, they were a good middle ground between sports and cruisers. Good ergo, some crome, an overall balance. Now the closest thing is the "naked" bike class for ergonomics, as for styling, that middle ground is gone

For the record, the "Naked" bike pretty much is a UJM...or rather the development thereof. Some of the styling has gone, you're right and we're in danger of losing the "Naked" altogether, as all the Big Four say that we don't buy naked bikes anymore. (Pretty much true).

There has been a bit of a resurgence in the "SuperCruiser" category, with the Z1000, FZ1, B-King, 919, etc. They're basically the UJM's of old, only they handle good too.

Compare:

to:

Not quite the same true, but the UJM is alive and well in Europe...Americans just prefer sportbikes. I Don't...but some of my motorcyclist friends look at me like I grow a second head when I say that a naked bike looks better than a fully faired bike.

ProDarwin wrote:

Nashco wrote: I'm not feelin' the Ninja 250 you guys are throwing out there, I rode one for a bit when I had my EX500. Maybe it's because I'm a bigger guy, but for me they're fun to about 25 mph (talk about tossable!) but after that it just feels silly, kind of like riding on a toddler's tricycle. Plus, the powertrain is setup to rev the piss out of the thing at highway speeds, I want to say it was something like 13k at 80 mph.

Do you like Miatas, or any other slow, 4 cylinder cars? The Ninja 250 is the equivalent. I had one, and it was a blast. Who cares if its spinning 10k @ 80mph?

No, I don't like Miatas (but I do like plenty of cars I consider to be slow), but I don't consider Miatas "slow" like a Ninja 250. Ninja 250 is like....1300cc Civic slow, in bike terms. For the same price as a 250 Ninja, you can get a 500 Ninja, so why would you get the 250? 7 mpg? Even not liking Miatas, I still feel you're doing the Miata a disservice by comparing it to the 250 Ninja, the 250 Ninja is more comparable to a new Kia compact IMO.

I care if it's spinning 10k @ 80 mph....it's annoying, like you forgot to upshift or something. So, you say you have an older Yami 600 now...why wouldn't you recommend that over the old Ninja 250? I felt 100 times safer on my F3 than I did on the Ninja 500 and 250, the (far more) modern handling was much more intuitive, and that's the name of the game on beginner motorsickles IMO.

Bryce

... older Yami 600 now...why wouldn't you recommend that over the old Ninja 250?

The Ninja is slower and lighter-weight. This makes it easier for complete n00bs to handle (both at speed and in parking lots). The Ninja is also very common - it's a known entity, parts are easy to obtain, etc.

Compare it to an early Civic instead if you must. Same conclusion - small, underpowered, but good value and fun to ride (for what it is).

Mental wrote:

JG Pasterjak wrote: I'm getting tired of not having a streetbike. I've had darn near everything, Classic UJMs, cruisers, 600 Sports, 900 Sports, 650 V twin sports, and a Bimmer. I'm really, really tempted by the new Ninja 250R, though. Really tempted. jg

My buddy got his for $3400 out the door, including TTT. Finally got delivered yesterday. Good looking bike, and the aftermarket is already there. Granted you don't drive guzzlers, but the 70 or 80 MPG doesn't hurt either

I think you got those numbers transposed. The cheapest I've found around here is about $4300 out the door ($3499MSRP + TTT + dealer fee). Most dealers are about $4800 out the door. Of course, nobody has any, and the waiting list at most dealers is at least 3-4 people deep.

jg

Miata is like a Suzuki DRZ400SM

I like naked bikes. thinking about converting my EX

PHeller wrote: Miata is like a Suzuki DRZ400SM

I'd say a DRZ is more like a wrx. Miata dosen't have the, Go straight to jail, do not collect $2000 looks of a nice WRX that a DRZ has stock.

Nashco wrote: So, you say you have an older Yami 600 now...why wouldn't you recommend that over the old Ninja 250?

You have to know what you are doing to ride a 600. Accidentally snapping the throttle on the 250 wouldn't do terribly much, even in lower gears. Doing so on a 600 can A) send you in the direction you are point in missile-like fashion B) Break the rear tire loose, making control very difficult or C) put you in wheelie mode. I'm not saying that the original poster will have any of these problems (esp. considering his previous experience), but face it: most people are uncoordinated. The 250R is cheap, reliable, and still pretty quick. It rewards skilled riding. You may not be able to outrun a 600cc rocket, but you can leave most cars on the road in the dust. Its a very good starting point, and is much more trouble free than a 600cc sportbike of similar price.

Miatas are slow. Really slow. The quickest non-turbos could barely break in into the 15s IIRC. Thats economy car territory. But I'd recommend a NB Miata to a beginner autox driver over a C4 Vette, even though I would choose the Vette myself. And the safety factor is much different there.

ignorant wrote:

PHeller wrote: Miata is like a Suzuki DRZ400SM

I'd say a DRZ is more like a wrx. Miata dosen't have the, Go straight to jail, do not collect $2000 looks of a nice WRX that a DRZ has stock.

Huh?

A DRZ, from law enforcement perspective looks much like a typical on/off bike, which normally isn't associated with hooliganism that sport bikes are.

Maybe more of a STI Special Edition without the wing?

Speaking of sports bikes, I had a good laugh out of this banned Kawasaki commercial. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqLLp9f6sDI&feature=related

ProDarwin wrote:

Nashco wrote: So, you say you have an older Yami 600 now...why wouldn't you recommend that over the old Ninja 250?

You have to know what you are doing to ride a 600. Accidentally snapping the throttle on the 250 wouldn't do terribly much, even in lower gears.

I guess this is where I'm hung up. I've never accidentally snapped the throttle. When you say "most people are uncoordinated" you must be referring to people that don't ride motorcycles, because if you're uncoordinated then motorcycling is not for you. Get a scooter, better yet a bicycle. Or a bus pass. Have you accidentally snapped the throttle??? How does that even happen? Since you go into the deal knowing your right hand is the throttle, it seems to me that it goes without saying to NOT snap it unless you want to go forward in a rapid manner. Suggesting a 250 in case you accidentally snap the throttle seems similar to suggesting that you wear boxing gloves when you poop, just in case you accidentally punch your butthole when you're wiping.

Bryce

I had a 96 (?) Ninja ZX600. I learned on it. I would NOT have wanted a smaller bike to learn on. It had plenty of power, but 'accidentally wheelieing' or spinning the tire was impossible. It was a kitten to ride at lower rpms, and VERY tractable.

Yes, I know that newer 600's are a different game, but the Ninja did well in it's class in it's time. I'd recommend it, the FZR or the CBR without question.

I always liked this one from the same series of commercials. A 90's 600, I can see putting a new rider on. A current 600 repli-racer, no.

Mental wrote My buddy got his for $3400 out the door, including TTT. Finally got delivered yesterday. Good looking bike, and the aftermarket is already there. Granted you don't drive guzzlers, but the 70 or 80 MPG doesn't hurt either

JG Wrote I think you got those numbers transposed. The cheapest I've found around here is about $4300 out the door ($3499MSRP + TTT + dealer fee). Most dealers are about $4800 out the door. Of course, nobody has any, and the waiting list at most dealers is at least 3-4 people deep. jg

Nope, the trick is finding a smaller dealer away from the city and pay cash. He did have to wait a month to get it, but those numbers are spot on.

http://www.fremontmotorsports.com/

njansenv wrote: I had a 96 (?) Ninja ZX600. I learned on it. I would NOT have wanted a smaller bike to learn on. It had plenty of power, but 'accidentally wheelieing' or spinning the tire was impossible. It was a kitten to ride at lower rpms, and VERY tractable. Yes, I know that newer 600's are a different game, but the Ninja did well in it's class in it's time. I'd recommend it, the FZR or the CBR without question.

My 02 R6 will pull the front end up without trying, that is with DOT race take offs on it, so it won't step out, but a new 600 will come up on you. I had my 99 BMW R1100S maxed out this past weekend on a high flat plane here in CO and got caught and passed by a 636. 600's are a whole new game and will kill you if you aren't careful.

That's the thing people keep getting mixed up with. Yes, newer 600s will put you on your ass if you don't respect them, mid 90s 600s didn't have that problem. Even an '02 R6 is a big jump from a '97 CBR. The R6 has a max power/torque of 120/68 (370 lb weight) compared to the CBR with 105/48 (410 lb weight). Obviously a new 600 today is another big jump.

Like njansenv said, accidental wheelies or tire spinning wasn't an issue with my '97 CBR. It had good power on the top end but was very docile at low engine speeds and was never overwhelming. I started with an EX500 for about a month and felt like I'd wasted some time/money with it as a starter bike and wish I'd started out with the CBR, the 250 would have been even worse for my preferences, that probably would have lasted a week or so.

Bryce

Nashco wrote:

ProDarwin wrote:

Nashco wrote: So, you say you have an older Yami 600 now...why wouldn't you recommend that over the old Ninja 250?

You have to know what you are doing to ride a 600. Accidentally snapping the throttle on the 250 wouldn't do terribly much, even in lower gears.

I guess this is where I'm hung up. I've never accidentally snapped the throttle. When you say "most people are uncoordinated" you must be referring to people that don't ride motorcycles, because if you're uncoordinated then motorcycling is not for you. Get a scooter, better yet a bicycle. Or a bus pass. Have you accidentally snapped the throttle??? How does that even happen? Since you go into the deal knowing your right hand is the throttle, it seems to me that it goes without saying to NOT snap it unless you want to go forward in a rapid manner. Suggesting a 250 in case you accidentally snap the throttle seems similar to suggesting that you wear boxing gloves when you poop, just in case you accidentally punch your butthole when you're wiping. Bryce

LOL, that analogy is great

I've never snapped the throttle accidentally. Have I given too much throttle before? Yes. When I first got the 600, riding on dirt roads was a bit hairy as the rear tire would break loose in an instant. Riding in the rain can be similar. Just rolling on the throttle smoothly you'll find its still easy to lose the back end in the wet. Dry wasn't so much of a problem. I've had the back end come out on me before... but that was because I was pushing the limit intentionally.

The MSF course even goes into great detail about how to grip the throttle to make sure you lift when you are braking and so you don't snap it when you hit a bump or something. I'm not necessarily saying the OP is this way, but you know as well as I do, clumsy people are everywhere. Whether they should get on a bike or not, they will. And if you give them power, they'll likely try and use it.

And yeah, the new 600s are much more nuts than the old ones. But you'll find that most of that power is gained up top. Below 10k or so they have very similar powerbands. The Mid 90s group of 600s still turn mid to low 11s in the 1/4. Thats not slow.

I have always assumed people that suggest Ninja 250s are "starter bikes" had never ridden a motorcycle and just suggested it based on its low cost and "cute looks".

I would suggest starting with a liter bike. Thats what I did and I turned out okay. I had a modified Ninja ZX-9R with a 993 kit, cams, flatslide carbs, full pipe, etc etc etc.

Like they said in the movie The Rock. "The second you dont respect this stuff, it kills you." Its pretty easy to figure out that your lifespan is determined by how that throttle works.

I've always suggested starting out with a smaller bike (not necessarily a Ninja 250, but something smaller) and I've been riding for more than 35 years.

For someone starting out, they cost less, they're lighter so they're easier to get used to (for someone who's never had one, just pushing a 1000cc bike around the garage or putting it on the centerstand may be a lot of work, never mind having to maneuver the thing in traffic), and even a Ninja is pretty quick compared to most cars. Plus, a beginner may decide after a while they just aren't into the whole bike thing, and if they started off with something small and inexpensive they can turn around and get rid of it without taking a big hit in the pocketbook.

Personally, I think the best first bike would be something like a 1970s Honda CB350. They built jillions of them, they're simple and reliable and cheap, they have a nice upright seating position so they're easy to ride, you can putter around the back yard or out in a field somewhere until you feel like hitting the street, and they'll still go fast enough so you can take them on the highway if you want.

I didn't really practice what I preach when I started - my first bike was a 650 Kawasaki, which was a pretty big and fast bike at the time. I'd ridden a little bit on dirt bikes prior to that, but I pretty much started out on the Kawasaki. I was pretty big and strong when I was a kid, though...for someone on the Internet who I've never seen in person (and who may be 5' 2" and weigh 120 pounds for all I know) I wouldn't recommend jumping on a big heavy bike first thing.

Newer range: How about a Honda Nighthawk?: http://powersports.honda.com/motorcycles/cruiser_standard/model.asp?ModelName=Nighthawk&ModelYear=2007&ModelId=CB2507

Honda Rebel?: http://powersports.honda.com/motorcycles/cruiser_standard/model.asp?ModelName=Rebel&ModelYear=2008&ModelId=CMX250C8

Here is a Nighthawk in the sub $2k range: http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/mcy/717168071.html

99 Rebel $1899: http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/mcy/717230833.html

Btw Chris, that Nimbus? Pale Ale I stole from ya when returning from BABE was excellent and very tasty...

The ninja 250 is superior to the honda 250 (be it rebel or nighthawk) in every possible respect.

I agree, especially since I just rode my new '08 Ninja 250R home yesterday.

First impressions: Ergonomically the best bike I've ever had. Fits me perfectly and is comfortable at speed.

Not what I'd call fast, but it's as fast or faster than my Mazdaspeed3.

Best handling bike I've ever had. Something to be said for super light weight. I'd be willing to do a track day on this bike.

8000rpm at 70mph isn't as buzzy as it sounds. At that speed the engine feels right at home. I imagine it will be even more so once it's more broken in.

Pix to come

jg

JG Pasterjak wrote: I agree, especially since I just rode my new '08 Ninja 250R home yesterday. Pix to come jg

Color me jealous, I'm still tooling around on a borrowed '07...

Make with the piccies!

If it weren't for the 100% chance that either it or my wife would kill me, I'd get a new Ninja 250R.

93gsxturbo wrote: I have always assumed people that suggest Ninja 250s are "starter bikes" had never ridden a motorcycle and just suggested it based on its low cost and "cute looks". I would suggest starting with a liter bike. Thats what I did and I turned out okay. I had a modified Ninja ZX-9R with a 993 kit, cams, flatslide carbs, full pipe, etc etc etc. Like they said in the movie The Rock. "The second you dont respect this stuff, it kills you." Its pretty easy to figure out that your lifespan is determined by how that throttle works.

You assume wrong. My reccomendation is based on almost 20 years of riding experince and two years of having one as my sole source of transportation.

Respect is easy, and so is the connection to the throttle and lifespan. But bikes are more than throttle, they are balance, and braking.

So the next question is what do you do when somehting goes wrong? And on a bike, it always does.

The fact of the matter is most folks will grab their rear brakes, and we trained ourselves as young folks that the front brake was membership in the over the handlebars club. But on a motorcyle the rear tire will usually lock up and slide. Reducing control and increasing stopping diatnce directly proportional to the weight of a bike. Here is one arena where a 250 will be superior to a liter bike, espcially as a starter.

80% of your braking force on a motorcycle is in the front, but it is alo easy to lock that one up as well, another piont a liter bike will fail as a starter bike, until the rider learns modualtion, and that will only happen with time. Meanwhile this leads to a discussion on balance, lock up the front wheel on a liter bike and the momentum is worse than that on a smaller one and you are in real trouble. The same for the 250, but it is light enough you have a hope of recovery, and barring that, less speed, less weight and less in pact on terra firma.

Finally, a 250 is more fun than you realize on curves. Impossible lean angles, and full throttle out of a sweeper that would spin a 600 out from under you. You learn energy managerment, and balance on a smaller bike more than a liter bike.

There are a dozen other reasonings I can get into, but I have niether the time or inclination,. The reality is numbers are on my side. Yes you turned out OK, so far. But if you hand with riders, I am sure you have heard a hundred stories of newbies on too much motorcycle reducing themselves into a crimson stain on the road.

JG Pasterjak wrote: I agree, especially since I just rode my new '08 Ninja 250R home yesterday. First impressions: Ergonomically the best bike I've ever had. Fits me perfectly and is comfortable at speed. Not what I'd call fast, but it's as fast or faster than my Mazdaspeed3. Best handling bike I've ever had. Something to be said for super light weight. I'd be willing to do a track day on this bike. 8000rpm at 70mph isn't as buzzy as it sounds. At that speed the engine feels right at home. I imagine it will be even more so once it's more broken in. Pix to come jg

Rock on! I spent this past weekend helping my buddy break his in here in CO. Its a cool bike, but it desperatly needs to be jetted for this altitutde.

I did it for the mileage... ...Well, sort of. Really I did it because: A) I missed having a streetbike, B) It's an all-new design of a true classic and, C) 65+mpg can't hurt—especially while you're having fun.

I'm talking about my new 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250R. The Ninja 250 has been around as a model for nearly two decades, and 2008 is really its first major revamping. The itty bitty parallel twin puts out a little under 40hp, but the bike only weighs a bit over 300lbs, so it moves along smartly. In its first 24 hours I put a little over 100 miles on it, and as it gets ready for its first oil change I may be about to proclaim it my favorite street bike yet. In the past decade or so I've owned a mid '70s Kawi KZ650, an '86 Ninja 600, a '94 Honda CBR600F2, a '94 CBR900RR, a Honda Shadow 750, a Honda Hawk GT, a Suzuki Burgman 400 scooter and a BMW R1100RT. Pretty much one of everything.

In my short time with the Ninjette I'm fully ready to proclaim that it fits me better than any bike I've ever had. The F2 was close, but throwing a leg over the 250 is like slipping on an old pair of shoes. It's not what I'd call fast, but after the 900RR "fast" becomes a very relative term. It's not as couchy for the long haul as the BMW, but after 20 miles you don't start to feel crampy or cricky.

So, although it gives up something in specific ares to all those other bikes, the sum of its parts is much more than any of them. Basically, it's fun. Judging an '85 CRX Si by the numbers will never impress you. But sitting behind the wheel reveals the truth. The 250R has the same vibe.

The green one jumps better.

jg