State Farm: Like a good neighbor? Perhaps not...

novaderrik wrote: i live off cash- when the wallet is empty and the last coin is gone out of the change jar, i'm broke... i give State Farm just enough to allow me to legally drive my car on the road every day, and once they start jacking up my rates for no legitimate reason, i'll give some other company just enough money to allow me to drive my car on the road legally. insurance is evil banks are evil lawyers are evil and when you get all 3 of them together, the evil is more than the sum of it's parts.

We fear things that we don't understand. Sounds to me like you never learned how banking, insurance, and lawyers work so you're scared of them. That's fine, avoid them all you like, but they're not inherently evil. I'm not any of those three but haven't had any serious problems with them either. And I've done a ton of business with all three.

novaderrik wrote:

Klayfish wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote: It could be a mistake. It could also be a business decision. I believe they are a business, and not obligated to provide her with insurance.

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. There could be a whole lot more to the story than what's here. Not saying that you're hiding anything Woody, but there could be a lot of other factors we/you don't know. Could also have been a business decision, insurance companies are businesses, not banks. I know it's popular to pile on them, but having spent my entire career working for them, I'll say it 'til I'm blue in the face...they're not the evil empire people think.

actually, State Farm is a bank.

Wrong. State Farm [Mutual] is not a bank. State Farm Bank is a bank. State Farm Bank is a subsidiary of State Farm Mutual, but they operate separately. The Bank has a CEO, Mutual has a CEO. They are different positions filled by different people because they are different companies.

Duke wrote:

Javelin wrote:

N Sperlo wrote: Insurance is a scam.

All the information you need to know.

Then feel free to do without it. It is not mandatory to have insurance. At the most, all you need is to have liability insurance to legally drive a car. You don't need to pay one dime more than that, and you can always choose not to drive if you really sincerely feel insurance is a scam.

I sell insurance, this is all that I buy, only because it is required in Michigan.

pilotbraden wrote:

Duke wrote: Then feel free to do without it. It is not mandatory to have insurance. At the most, all you need is to have liability insurance to legally drive a car. You don't need to pay one dime more than that, and you can always choose not to drive if you really sincerely feel insurance is a scam.

I sell insurance, this is all that I buy, only because it is required in Michigan.

So I assume you self-insure? Or you just choose to use your experience and knowledge to manage risk?

Duke wrote:

pilotbraden wrote:

Duke wrote: Then feel free to do without it. It is not mandatory to have insurance. At the most, all you need is to have liability insurance to legally drive a car. You don't need to pay one dime more than that, and you can always choose not to drive if you really sincerely feel insurance is a scam.

I sell insurance, this is all that I buy, only because it is required in Michigan.

So I assume you self-insure? Or you just choose to use your experience and knowledge to manage risk?

It is because I am a cheap SOB. Back when I was a professional pilot I had to jump through many hoops to settle a claim on a 190E. It was not worth it to me. I missed several days of work giving a deposition and dealing with paranoid adjusters. So I get liability only and pocket a substantial savings. Most of my vehicles are older and can be replaced with not too much money.

pilotbraden wrote: It is because I am a cheap SOB. Back when I was a professional pilot I had to jump through many hoops to settle a claim on a 190E. It was not worth it to me. I missed several days of work giving a deposition and dealing with paranoid adjusters. So I get liability only and pocket a substantial savings. Most of my vehicles are older and can be replaced with not too much money.

So you self-insure and manage risk, in other words. You buy inexpensive cars that you don't cry about writing off or paying out of pocket to repair. That's a perfectly valid choice. Does that also mean you think insurance companies are evil?

I will say, however, that in my experience, the liability is the expensive part, especially if you have enough assets to need more than the legally required minimum coverage. Comprehensive and collision coverage don't add a huge amount of cost for me, so I find them worthwhile.

In reply to pilotbraden:

Plus if you get hit by someone else who has insurance, you profit

Note:this doesn't work in no fault states

Do I like paying for insurance? No, but it's peace of mind in case the sh1t hits the fan. I'm not so arrogant to think I'm never going to screw up again and make a mistake.

Strizzo wrote:

spitfirebill wrote: I had a good friend that worked for Allstate most of his life. He had his insurnace (maybe only auto) with another company. I always found that ironic.

my fiance is in the insurance business, she always said that they do that because if you have to sue your insurance company, you don't want to be suing your employer.

Exactly what he said.

yamaha wrote: In reply to pilotbraden: Plus if you get hit by someone else who has insurance, you profit Note:this doesn't work in no fault states

Not true on the no fault.

No fault doesn't mean there is no one at fault. Basically it means that every policy has a certain amount of coverages for injuries and lost wages as the result of an accident. Has nothing to do with property damage.

Also if there is any permanent injury, scarring etc. you can go after the at fault parties carrier. Surprisingly the majority of minor accident victims who retains counsel have permanent injuries and uses just over the amount of coverage their policy has.

Klayfish wrote: So Javelin, what is it that makes you convinced it's a scam? Especially if you work in the business.

I don't know about the insurance companies as banks things, that wasn't me. But I will comment on what I did post up on. I work in the worker's comp side of insurance claims, and my direct workings with dozens of insurers on these claims shows me what a scam they are once you have a claim. I have no doubt that the majority of people, especially if they never have an at-fault or a serious claim, will be highly satisfied with their service.

However, once you have a serious claim, the company then tries to "minimize costs". That doesn't sound so bad on the surface, but with nearly every company I've worked with that has meant doing things that were downright unethical. They literally spend thousands of man-hours looking for the slightest technicality or loophole to get out of paying for legitimate items. In the convoluted world of what a "whole person" consists of, this can get drastic.

I've had to fight to show that the loss of a digit was not a "pre-existing condition", among other crazy stories.

dculberson wrote:

novaderrik wrote: i live off cash- when the wallet is empty and the last coin is gone out of the change jar, i'm broke... i give State Farm just enough to allow me to legally drive my car on the road every day, and once they start jacking up my rates for no legitimate reason, i'll give some other company just enough money to allow me to drive my car on the road legally. insurance is evil banks are evil lawyers are evil and when you get all 3 of them together, the evil is more than the sum of it's parts.

We fear things that we don't understand. Sounds to me like you never learned how banking, insurance, and lawyers work so you're scared of them. That's fine, avoid them all you like, but they're not inherently evil. I'm not any of those three but haven't had any serious problems with them either. And I've done a ton of business with all three.

i understand banks, insurance companies, and lawyers... been royally screwed over by all three many times over back when i was trying to live "the American dream" the proper way and decided that from here on out they get the bare minimum amount of money that i can legally be forced to give them.

i know that living life without being entangled with those 3 evil forces is a strange concept, but honestly, life is much easier now that i don't have any real binding ties with any of them. the $3 a week i give to Wal Mart or the local bank to cash my paycheck is cheaper than the $5 that US Bank wants to cash a payroll check that has their logo on it, and it's definitely cheaper than opening an account with them just to "save" that much every week.

the $53 i give to State Farm every month for basic liability insurance on 2 cars and renter's insurance is cheaper than just liability on a single car at any other insurance company i've checked with- and i've got a perfect driving record back to 2005 and no accidents or claims at all going back to when i started driving in 1990. so for now they are the cheapest and best option for a product that the state forces me to purchase to legally drive my cars on the road, and i've made it very clear to the agent that as soon as my rates start going up for no reason i'll find a better place to send my money every month,

I have State Farm on my DD and my house. SF has consistently been the least expensive for these two. They are too expensive for my bike (Progressive) and the Jensen Healey (American Collectors).

I have had occasion to file one claim, which was when the Trooper got rear ended. Turns out the guy who hit me, AND the girl he knocked me into, all had SF.

I had a helluva time with them because they were going to take the Trooper and I said not no but hell no. It took a lot of time to get them to see my way of thinking, but it finally got done. My rates did not go up, don't know if the other two had increases or ? So I guess I'm sorta semi OK with them.

For my money, the worst scam out there is health insurance. That's a bunch of damn thieves.

Javelin wrote:

Klayfish wrote: So Javelin, what is it that makes you convinced it's a scam? Especially if you work in the business.

I don't know about the insurance companies as banks things, that wasn't me. But I will comment on what I did post up on. I work in the worker's comp side of insurance claims, and my direct workings with dozens of insurers on these claims shows me what a scam they are once you have a claim. I have no doubt that the majority of people, especially if they never have an at-fault or a serious claim, will be highly satisfied with their service. *However*, once you have a serious claim, the company then tries to "minimize costs". That doesn't sound so bad on the surface, but with nearly every company I've worked with that has meant doing things that were downright unethical. They literally spend thousands of man-hours looking for the slightest technicality or loophole to get out of paying for legitimate items. In the convoluted world of what a "whole person" consists of, this can get drastic. I've had to fight to show that the loss of a digit was not a "pre-existing condition", among other crazy stories.

from the stories i've heard, it depends on the company. fiance has done workers comp adjusting, co-owned an agency with her dad selling insurance, and now is global insurance coordinator for a company. she has friends that were adjusters for Flo and the gang that were offered gift cards and other rewards for denying the most claims each month (this was auto adjusting, iirc but still completely illegal). on the other hand i've had my agent advise on what is the best thing to do for me, rather than what would make the company the most money. there is a reason i've used the same people since i turned 16, and my parents have as well for many years before then.

Javelin wrote: *However*, once you have a serious claim, the company then tries to "minimize costs". That doesn't sound so bad on the surface, but with nearly every company I've worked with that has meant doing things that were downright unethical. They literally spend thousands of man-hours looking for the slightest technicality or loophole to get out of paying for legitimate items. In the convoluted world of what a "whole person" consists of, this can get drastic. I've had to fight to show that the loss of a digit was not a "pre-existing condition", among other crazy stories.

And I guess you've never seen a worker's comp claimant trying to scam the system, right?

I have NEVER seen a worker's comp claimant being honest. EVERY claim I am familiar with (which I confess is only a couple dozen) includes fraudulent behavior on the part of the claimant.

There is nothing unethical or "scamming" about a business trying to minimize costs. ALL businesses do. That's why most of us have jobs! Companies that do badly at this are not in business very long.

Soulless- sure. I didn't realize having a soul was part of the job description for the average insurance company.

I think there are a lot of people in this thread who seem to expect an insurance company to treat them like their Mommy. Profits are not evil.

In reply to SVreX:

I've had over 300 cases already. ~15% involved some sort of fraud or dishonesty on the worker's part. A further 10% had the same issues from the employer's side (with maybe a 1% overlap). ~90% have involved unethical, dishonest, or borderline illegal employer on the insurer's side.

There's a difference between minimizing costs (not covering an unrelated condition, not paying for an optional service, trying to expedite the claim, etc) and being a scam artist (trying to call the injury pre-existing, denying essential medical care, etc).

A company can easily make a profit, and be ethical. Unfortunately, most don't (and that's nearly all industries).

My experience is different than yours.

In reply to Javelin:

I think your assertion that "most" companies don't make their profits ethically is highly speculative, and probably unfounded. Also highly likely to be untrue, but I will gladly consider the facts if you have any.

I have State Farm, been with them forever. I've worked for 3 of their competitors over the years and never switched...for one simple reason. None of them could match the rates I have with SF.

Nobody likes to pay for insurance. You're playing Vegas--the house hopes you won't make a claim, and you're betting that at some point you will have to. The average person has an auto claim every 7-10 years.

Like most big businesses, insurance is filled with it's fair share of incompetents and morons. It's a bean counting business, so that takes precedence over common sense. I deal with the fallout of that every day and have bitched about it on this message board often enough.

However...when some of you know-it-alls spew forth your intellectual nuggets about how everyone in the insurance industry is a scam artist and a liar, you're lumping me in there. So forgive me if I won't support your comprehensive conspiracy theory on how insurance is out to get you. I'd rather not have a claim with you folks either. (Car enthusiasts are some of the most annoying people to have a claim with, because they typically think they know more than they do. I cringe every time I get a Corvette or classic car claim). I'd rather write estimates on 100 minivans than deal with one autocrossing CRX owner who believes his car will "never be right" because his door got hit.

Enjoy your insurance bashing thread.

ddavidv wrote: Like most big businesses, insurance is filled with it's fair share of incompetents and morons. It's a bean counting business, so that takes precedence over common sense. I deal with the fallout of that every day and have bitched about it on this message board often enough. However...when some of you know-it-alls spew forth your intellectual nuggets about how everyone in the insurance industry is a scam artist and a liar, you're lumping me in there. So forgive me if I won't support your comprehensive conspiracy theory on how insurance is out to get you. I'd rather not have a claim with you folks either. (Car enthusiasts are some of the most annoying people to have a claim with, because they typically think they know more than they do. I cringe every time I get a Corvette or classic car claim). I'd rather write estimates on 100 minivans than deal with one autocrossing CRX owner who believes his car will "never be right" because his door got hit. Enjoy your insurance bashing thread.

+1. The vocal minority who are always right about everything, are certainly not the most informed. I frequently go out of my way to provide coverage where it is very sketchy, and often pay more than a claim is worth to protect my insured from excess exposure. Why? Because in reality if push came to shove on most issues, courts will side with the consumer over the company, the same way they side with plaintiffs over defendants, which is why there are so many "questionable" injury claims, which is why rates are so high, which is why people bitch, I could go on...

Javelin wrote: In reply to SVreX: I've had over 300 cases already. ~15% involved some sort of fraud or dishonesty on the worker's part. A further 10% had the same issues from the employer's side (with maybe a 1% overlap).

So despite all the aches and pains that the companies have to go through, and thereby put everyone else through, there is still a 24% attempt at fraud. Hmm.....

Sonic wrote:

ddavidv wrote: Like most big businesses, insurance is filled with it's fair share of incompetents and morons. It's a bean counting business, so that takes precedence over common sense. I deal with the fallout of that every day and have bitched about it on this message board often enough. However...when some of you know-it-alls spew forth your intellectual nuggets about how everyone in the insurance industry is a scam artist and a liar, you're lumping me in there. So forgive me if I won't support your comprehensive conspiracy theory on how insurance is out to get you. I'd rather not have a claim with you folks either. (Car enthusiasts are some of the most annoying people to have a claim with, because they typically think they know more than they do. I cringe every time I get a Corvette or classic car claim). I'd rather write estimates on 100 minivans than deal with one autocrossing CRX owner who believes his car will "never be right" because his door got hit. Enjoy your insurance bashing thread.

+1. The vocal minority who are always right about everything, are certainly not the most informed. I frequently go out of my way to provide coverage where it is very sketchy, and often pay more than a claim is worth to protect my insured from excess exposure. Why? Because in reality if push came to shove on most issues, courts will side with the consumer over the company, the same way they side with plaintiffs over defendants, which is why there are so many "questionable" injury claims, which is why rates are so high, which is why people bitch, I could go on...

+1 to these guys. I treat everyone how I would like to be treated or see my family/friends treated and do not consider myself nor most of my peers bottom feeders. It is a tough job butting heads with people everyday.

I deal mostly with homeowners insurance property damage claims now. I do not look for coverage issues or reasons for denial. I can only show damages and justify my recommendations. I find that most people have not read or do not understand their policy.

+1 to each of you, for your positive efforts.

I think it should be against the rules for anyone to bash businesses until they've tried to run one. This kind of bashing gets tiresome.

State Farm will not cover me. I got kicked off when I got my first ticket when I was sixteen. To this day my Mom gets a letter every year stating if I'm driving her car it will not be covered.

I've got good coverage through USAA and they handled my hail damage claim nicely. No complaints about them.

I do not think insurance companies are evil.

mtn wrote:

Javelin wrote: In reply to SVreX: I've had over 300 cases already. ~15% involved some sort of fraud or dishonesty on the worker's part. A further 10% had the same issues from the employer's side (with maybe a 1% overlap).

So despite all the aches and pains that the companies have to go through, and thereby put everyone else through, there is still a 24% attempt at fraud. Hmm.....

You know, I've honestly never looked at it from that end. If one in four of my clients were trying to pull one over on me, I'd probably be a jerk to 90% of them as well.