Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/20/16 7:27 p.m.

I've been mulling over my retirement home. I'm wanting something small and extremely efficient. The house will be in the 600-800 sq ft range, and built with energy conservation in mind. I'm not trying to save the planet, but I would love a power bill well under $100 a month, rather than the $200-$350 I spend now. Conventional construction is doable, but I've been looking at SIPs.

http://www.acmepanel.com/index.asp

Would any of you gents have experience with them? SIPs are available with R values of 48. With some thermally efficient windows or even insulated shutters, it shouldn't take much to heat and cool a small house.

Thoughts, experiences, horror stories, would be welcome.

Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/20/16 7:28 p.m.

Oh, and I'll probably be building this myself if that matters.

Grtechguy
Grtechguy MegaDork
8/20/16 7:31 p.m.

Parents did something similar around 1983. Plywood covered stud walls for an addition they put on.

Plywood coated and completely below ground with no leaking to this day.

Only thing I will mention, house is on a sand hill in West Michigan with exceptional great drainage.

Not sure how well the panels would work with a low water table.

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
8/20/16 7:47 p.m.

I volunteered on a project that used these for all the external walls. The building was on a flood plane in a high humidity area and the builder selected these due to their excellent mold resistance compared to wood studs, fiber insulation and drywall. The walls sure went up quick!

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
8/20/16 8:18 p.m.

I've done some work with them.

Be careful about making generalities. SIPs can be made with different core materials, skins, with or without mildew inhibitor, etc.

Not all SIPs are suitable for ground contact. Most have 7/16 OSB skins, and are NOT suitable for ground contact.

They are probably the best available choice for energy efficiency. An R-48 SIPs panel is really overkill for wall panels, unless you are going to live in the Artic Circle. It's also too big for a house that small. That would be a panel over 12" thick, which would consume a lot of floor space at a high cost for minimal return.

Important note on SIPs. The skin IS the structure. They are an engineered system. If you ever have a problem, its a big one. I worked on a project that used SIPs roof panels and had a leak (before the building was even completed). Once the skin started rotting, the roof structure lost it's entire structural integrity. The panels had to be ripped off the building and started over. That's the equivalent of tearing the roofing, sheathing, roof structure, insulation, ceiling, and ceiling finish off. If it had been a stick built structure, it would have been $2500 work of replacing OSB. Instead, it was $60K worth of repairs.

But yeah, great system. I'd use it for myself.

dculberson
dculberson PowerDork
8/20/16 9:00 p.m.

My brothers house has SIPs panels for the roof. It allowed him to have a well insulated roof but with exposed trusses inside; it's beautiful. He hasn't had any issues that I know of but I can ask him if you want!

Oh, he built the house himself.

stuart in mn
stuart in mn UltimaDork
8/20/16 9:38 p.m.

My next door neighbor built a killer garage with SIPs, it has a second story studio for his wife's clothing design business. There's a big I-beam running along the peak of the roof that holds up the SIP roof panels, so there are no cross ties or anything like that, the whole ceiling is wide open. He did have a crane come in to lift and place the panels, but it was all done in less than two days. They're really happy with how easy it is to heat, and also how quiet it is inside.

Antihero
Antihero GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/20/16 10:45 p.m.

My power Bill is waaaayyy under a hundred a month, I live in solar power. My only cost is generator gas when needed.

DeadSkunk
DeadSkunk UberDork
8/21/16 7:51 a.m.

I've done the "open house" tours of two local high energy efficiency builders. One tends to do post-and-beam construction with SIP walls and ceiling. The other uses several methods, but all involved sealing the shell with urethane foam 2" thick. I too think of building an efficient retirement home and I'm currently leaning more to a conventional stick-built structure, but sealed with urethane foam and some passive solar. One local house stayed above 57 degrees all winter (I'm in SE Michigan)while the contractor finished the interior , and before there was any heating system installed. The day I was there it was 62 inside and the outside temperature was 26 at 9:00 AM.
Info on that home...
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5061c99ec4aac31a6c84eabf/t/50eb25fce4b08880418ee541/1357587964365/Phoenix+House+Brochure.pdf

mazdeuce
mazdeuce UltimaDork
8/21/16 8:03 a.m.

How does a future owner deal with structural modifications? New/bigger windows, new rooms, bumping out a room, that sort of thing. Every house I've ever lived in has a history of pretty significant changes.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
8/21/16 8:30 a.m.

In reply to mazdeuce:

Probably like any other house - whether or not the wall in question is load bearing or not will determine the level of modifications.

I've only seen these panels used in timber frame construction, so non-load bearing.

To be honest, I think they would be overkill for a house that small. My house is about 600 square feet with absolute crap insulation and drafty windows. Even then my electric bill averages under $100/month and I use round 200 gal/season of oil for heat (25+ year old forced air heater/AC due for replacement). The bill will be a bit higher in the Summer with the A/C running, but I've had bills in the $50 range during the winter. Granted, I'm not home for 12 hrs each day, so the system is usually on set-back. (Philly suburbs)

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand Dork
8/21/16 10:35 a.m.

Sips are expensive.

I would go simpler for a small house. Stick frame with dense pack cellulose between the studs + rigid insulation outside. Thickness requirements vary by climate region (and can have huge detrimental effect from condensation if you get it wrong) but I like 1.5" rigid because you can push the windows out using 2x3 around the opening, flat on the sheathing. Rigid rock wool is the favored non petrol insulation solution lately.

Just make sure you are air tight, since drafts bring moisture. Then make sure you have mechanical fresh air, since your house won't be leaky.

This author and this site is a pretty good place to do some reading:

Link

Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/21/16 11:26 a.m.

A/C is the killer down here, as far as energy consumption. My A/C runs from April until October. July and August, it basically never shuts down. Winters will be free or super cheap, because I'll probably heat primarily with wood with the heat pump as a backup.

For the future owners and modifications, that will be my kids problem. The house will be in the middle of the family farm and only passable to birth family. Resale won't be considered during construction. There is a fair chance I'll build it as a "portable" building. That changes a lot of the rules.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
8/21/16 11:53 a.m.

Everything about a SIPs structure is engineered. Structural loads, insulation, dew point, air exchanges, everything.

That means it can't be modified well without engineering consultation. It's easy for a DIYer to eff it up over time.

So, for example, if a heating unit is swapped for a more efficient one, without calculating the air exchanges and required make-up air, the unit can create moisture that ends up trapped inside the envelope, which compromises the structure. Or accumulates carbon monoxide, harmful to the occupants.

Or, if they add a window without proper sealing or thermal breaks, it can condensate inside the wall and compromise the structural integrity of the wall.

Changing a bathroom fan can alter the air exchanges of the whole house.

Just normal living can lead to decisions that are not good for the structure over time. It's not at all like a stick built house (which is "engineered" via adherence to standard practices defined in the building code).

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
8/21/16 3:19 p.m.
OHSCrifle wrote: Sips are expensive. I would go simpler for a small house. Stick frame with dense pack cellulose between the studs + rigid insulation outside. Thickness requirements vary by climate region (and can have huge detrimental effect from condensation if you get it wrong) but I like 1.5" rigid because you can push the windows out using 2x3 around the opening, flat on the sheathing. Rigid rock wool is the favored non petrol insulation solution lately. Just make sure you are air tight, since drafts bring moisture. Then make sure you have mechanical fresh air, since your house won't be leaky. This author and this site is a pretty good place to do some reading: Link

That link is fascinating, thank you.

I'm 20 years out from retirement but with my wife I'm we're always 1/2 looking for locations and building ideas.

bigdaddylee82
bigdaddylee82 SuperDork
8/21/16 6:54 p.m.

The additions to my parent's place is all post and beam and SIPs. They've been holding up well for over a decade. I don't know the R values, but the roof panels are 8" thick, wall panels are 6" thick, and floor panels (where they used them) are 4" thick. My folks turned a ~2200 Sq Ft '50s cinder block house into a ~8000 Sq Ft house by building above and to 3 sides of the existing house. All of the additions are SIPs and pine beams.

My folks bought 20 acres of 30 year old pine and partnered with a small, local, wood mill to fall the trees mill the beams and some of the finish lumber. Dad used a place in northeast AR to laser all the 1/4" steel brackets for putting the giant erector set together. Most of the work was done by dad, family, and me, dad hired plumbers, electricians, stone layers, etc. but the structure was all us and a few hired laborers.

Most of it was handled with farm equipment we already had, dad's got a Swinger front end loader, but he did lease a giant New Holand telehandler for about a month, and the tall stuff required a crane.

SIPs went together simple enough, the foam is the same thickness as standard lumber, i.e. 4" foam is the same thickness as a 2x4 is wide. Dad had some electric "branding irons" similar to electric charcoal starters, one for each thickness of panel he was using. The branding irons had guards on them that could be set at various depths, so you set the depth, then "cut" the foam from the edge forming a groove that allows you to fit lumber in. Sandwiching lumber back to back allowed you to fit panels edge to edge, kind of like giant tongue and groove panels. There were a lot of really long screws used too.

The roof SIPs panels were felted with tar paper, and corrugated steel roofing was attached directly to them.

That's most of what I remember, if you have any more specific questions, I can try to answer, or at least ask dad. I know I have some finished pictures, but I might have some during construction pictures too, if you're interested I can see what I can dig up.

Advan046
Advan046 SuperDork
8/22/16 8:47 a.m.

The main issue I observed with SIPs is some folks try to wing it. Yes you can try to over build and luck out with a great building. Take the time to research all the performance requirements you need from your walls before getting into wall specs. We all know how to make sure a stud is straight and true before using it in a wall. But SIP walls can be engineered any way you can imagine.

In a recent project we did investigate it for use in a couple northern USA buildings. However, we could not find sufficient maintenance contractors in the area that knew how to work on such walls. There were some but not enough to make us comfortable putting that construction in place up there.

Another mild issue that came up during that contract discussion was thermal expansion. During days with cold ambient but high solar loads on one side of the structure we would see some interesting stresses based on our engineering that the SIP contractor couldn't confirm would or would not be an issue. Not saying these walls can't handle it, just that for some reason the supplier didn't know what their wall could deal with. Of course they wouldn't share all their design info so we could figure it out ourselves.

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