oldsaw wrote: That is a salient point and bears repeating. US history is replete with instances where both entities (ownership and union) have earned their woeful reputations. VW may have proved itself to their US employees but the UAW has a long way to go before it earns the respect of potential members.
I agree on both points. Thanks for pointing that out Old Saw.
BoxheadTim wrote: ....Some of it is because the manufacturers did concentrate on premium products, some of it is because they only have a few gigantic corporations and a lot of the high quality stuff is made by small to medium sized companies that don't readily outsource....
OK, thanks for that.
I believe Germans tend to be pretty "nation proud" also. Do Germans have a high tendency to go for German made products? Would that make a difference?
I think having a relatively large auto industry (premium products as you say) for the size of the country might have a lot to do with it.
I am just wondering if Germany is a reasonable model to look at as a modern success story. (They seem to be propping up most of Europe at this point)
aircooled wrote: I believe Germans tend to be pretty "nation proud" also. Do Germans have a high tendency to go for German made products? Would that make a difference?
If they are anything like my Friend Mark from Cologne Germany... yes they are -very- Nation Proud. He will go out of his way to either buy stuff here in the US made in Germany or will have his parents in Germany buy it for him and ship it over.
Once upon a time people in this country were very proud of "made in America" whatever happened to that?
Germans are very nation proud. They also pour a lot of energy into making sure manufacturers are the best trained in the world and put out premium quality products. In the brewing industry, all the top quality equipment is German made. It commands a serious price premium though, so people generally prefer Canadian, American, Italian, or Chinese (but you need to have a representative on the ground in China to do the quality control).
Although that is just talking about the brewing industry, many of those companies manufacture products for a wide range of other industries, e.g. Siemens.
BoxheadTim wrote: They have had them and still have them to a certain extent...
Thank for that data. Sounds like first hand experience.
Xceler8x wrote:BoxheadTim wrote: They have had them and still have them to a certain extent...Thank for that data. Sounds like first hand experience.
It (kinda) is - I am German ("Boxhead" is a slightly derogatory nickname in the UK for Germans), but I haven't lived in Germany for about 15 years. I still have family and friends there and follow the German news, so I've got an idea as to what's going on, but have a bit more of an outsider's perspective by now. Not that that makes it any better, some things become more obvious if you look from the outside in.
aircooled wrote:BoxheadTim wrote: ....Some of it is because the manufacturers did concentrate on premium products, some of it is because they only have a few gigantic corporations and a lot of the high quality stuff is made by small to medium sized companies that don't readily outsource....OK, thanks for that. I believe Germans tend to be pretty "nation proud" also. Do Germans have a high tendency to go for German made products? Would that make a difference?
Well, the stereotypical German does tend to have a preference for locally made products and a lot of them are convinced that certain things in Germany are better when they just are different. A typical German house is still built to last for at least three generations but probably sold on after ten to twenty years anyway.
That said, people are used to buy a lot of items made in other countries (especially clothing, electronics etc) simply because the locally made stuff is financially out of reach.
aircooled wrote: I think having a relatively large auto industry (premium products as you say) for the size of the country might have a lot to do with it.
Most likely - the whole country is still very manufacturing oriented. There is some high tech, but I wouldn't expect the next Farcebook to come out of Germany for example.
aircooled wrote: I am just wondering if Germany is a reasonable model to look at as a modern success story. (They seem to be propping up most of Europe at this point)
Weeeell.
See, the problem with the "propping up most of Europe" and following the German model is that Germany is extremely export-oriented. The whole country essentially relies on selling their products abroad, but they don't import goods and services at the same rate. As a result there is a massive positive trade balance that needs to be financed somehow. Guess what happens if you, say, send a lot of VW Golfs to Greece and they don't send back olive oil of the same value, but you share a currency - someone has to finance the other nation's trade deficit.
It has been said that Germans need to save less and spend more, but part of the problem is that my generation especially has been told since about the mid-80s that our state pensions might not be safe, so on top of the quite considerable chunk that the state pension "tax" (it's a social security style pay-as-you-go system) takes out of your pay check, we have to pile up money for our retirement. In most cases, once you figure in taxes, mandatory health insurance and the pension tax (currently a bit over 19% of your gross income), your net pay check is about half of your gross one. Good luck spending more money...
mad_machine wrote: If they are anything like my Friend Mark from Cologne Germany... yes they are -very- Nation Proud. He will go out of his way to either buy stuff here in the US made in Germany or will have his parents in Germany buy it for him and ship it over.
Heh. A good friend of mine and fellow German expat over here still has his shampoo shipped over from Germany.
OK, glass houses, stones and all that - I still occasionally get my shaving cream shipped over from the UK...
mad_machine wrote: Once upon a time people in this country were very proud of "made in America" whatever happened to that?
At a guess, people wanted to buy more stuff but didn't have that much more money? Buying goods manufactured in the same country you live in tends to be more expensive than buying similar products from lower cost countries. Wages have been stagnant in real terms for a while over here for a lot of people, so it helps to save some money.
In reply to BoxheadTim:
I used to go through Kokomo, IN three times a week......80% of the cars in parking lots at Chrysler were foreign. Same story at Fisher Body in Marion.
Same thing trickled down.
BoxheadTim wrote: Most likely - the whole country is still very manufacturing oriented. There is some high tech, but I wouldn't expect the next Farcebook to come out of Germany for example.
I forget the specifics, but friends of mine in Germany have complained about certain issues with tax and insurance laws that make it much more difficult to be an independent consultant or self employed in things like the tech sector. The result is that you have fewer dynamic individuals doing bleeding edge cultural-tech innovation. They will train people up to engineer, manufacture, and maintain things... but they aren't really great at innovating.
In reply to Beer Baron:
There are a bunch of them - for starters, they have laws in place designed to catch "fake independent contractors". Basically, if you work for a client like an employee would, but you're being paid as a contractor, they can just designate you as an employee, which very much limits the amount of write downs and tax deductions. That's a big problem if you're trying to work for yourself and have a consulting gig or two to pay the bills.
The other one - and that one caught me out badly - is that you require a fair amount of capital to set up the equivalent of an LLC. Basically, you have to have 25000 Euros as capital to start one. If you don't, you are personally liable for everything.
My company didn't make it, and it took a over a decade to pay all of that crap off as back then, there wasn't such a thing as personal bankruptcy in Germany.
So yeah, it's not a super entrepreneur friendly environment.
aircooled wrote: Anyone know why Germany has not had the outsourcing issues the US has had?
Plenty of neighboring poorer countries to get guest workers from?
yamaha wrote: In reply to BoxheadTim: I used to go through Kokomo, IN three times a week......80% of the cars in parking lots at Chrysler were foreign.
But aren't 80% of Chryslers foreign? 
Is there any reason they can't have a union besides the UAW? I can understand their reluctance to join them.
Where I work we have a number of unions, three different ones just for the bus operators. My union is made up of only bus and subway supervisors. There is no international that we are a member of, just a half a dozen guys and a part time girl in an office in Brooklyn. They go to the company with our issues, come to us with the company's, and argue over a contract every few years.
I know that feeling, Wally. Here in AC the stagehands are covered by three unions. IATSE 77 covers outdoor and non-casino venues. 917 Covers Casino casual stagehands, and the Operating Engineers Local 68 covers the casino Full timer stagehands
Knurled wrote:yamaha wrote: In reply to BoxheadTim: I used to go through Kokomo, IN three times a week......80% of the cars in parking lots at Chrysler were foreign.But aren't 80% of Chryslers foreign?
Not really at that time......
In reply to Wally:
They can probably set up their own union free of the UAW, and most likely that is what will happen.
FYI - The UAW has filed a rejection of the TN VW factory vote to unionize citing undue outside influence.
UAW Files Rejection Of Chattanooga Election Results
From the article:
"Union president Bob King reaffirmed the union’s commitment to organizing the VW plant in the filing, while also having this to say about the anti-union forces who campaigned against the workers’ right to join the UAW:
It’s an outrage that politically motivated third parties threatened the economic future of this facility and the opportunity for workers to create a successful operating model that that would grow jobs in Tennessee. It is extraordinary interference in the private decision of workers to have a U.S. senator, a governor and leaders of the state legislature threaten the company with the denial of economic incentives and workers with a loss of product."
~~~~~~
It is pretty threatening to try to unionize anyway. I know that some employees worry about a lot of other factors not least of which would be retaliation from just about everyone for organizing even if the owning company is ok with it. Having all the local currently elected leadership, including a U.S. Senator, threaten during a union vote feels like undue influence to me.
Ironic considering Bob Corker, the senator in question, is a small and less intrusive government guy but felt no reason to restrain his personal intrusion into a matter that really should only involve a corporation (VW) and their employees on what is really a private matter between those two entities. I could say more but let's just leave it at that.
mad_machine wrote: Once upon a time people in this country were very proud of "made in America" whatever happened to that?
In reply to Xceler8x:
This has happened before with the UAW, and they've never been this pissy about it. My personal hope is they redo the vote to only get a landslide against the UAW.
yamaha wrote: In reply to Xceler8x: This has happened before with the UAW, and they've never been this pissy about it. My personal hope is they redo the vote to only get a landslide against the UAW.
That'd be some sh!t wouldn't it?
I read an article on the Truth About Cars website wherein some UAW dirt was trotted out so I could see that this referendum may not even be a vote on unionization by the workers as more of a protest vote against the UAW. Like some other posters have said on this thread maybe they'd be more likely to vote for a new auto workers union or even a local works union in that one plant alone. That style of workers group sounds more like the German version anyway.
Outside influences involved? No way! Just because Norquist put up billboards like this-
BTW, what is a (an) Politican?
Tenn is also a Right to Work state. The workers will not be forced to join or support the union
In reply to Cone_Junkie:
And despite those, the opposition workers still did more to effect the outcome(let's face it, most people aren't on the fence when it comes to unions) Also, I wonder how many times the UAW keeps whining for new votes until they get one in their favor.
In reply to Datsun1500:
They want into everywhere really bad due to their dwindling income/membership. They were also boasting about having "Overwhelming Support" during summer of last year......
In reply to mad_machine:
IN is also a right to work state, and to even get in the door at GM or Chrysler you have join the union to even be considered for a position that is full time and or pays better than $25k/yr. Granted, that's better than the old "good 'ole boy" system that required you to be family or buy your way in. R2W doesn't really effect the UAW for some reason. 
Now that is an interesting thought. How does the UAW work for joining? I know my Local, IATSE 77 requires you to earn over $10,000 in a year to even be eligible for the vote to get in. Of course as a non-member you are -way- down on the bottom of the list to even get a call.. so it is hard to earn that 10 grand
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