When is it time to panic

Thanks for the counterpoint.

I have to say I was a bit suspicious on viewing because if it was even partially true, the lawsuits would be MASSIVE. I am sure there will still be some though.

I will say though, the callousness of some doctors can be a bit shocking.  I have previously worked with vascular surgery conferences and the way some of them talked about there patients was a bit scary (talking to other doctors).  You got a strong impression there was a good amount of guessing and experimenting going on that was unnecessary (e.g. the patients would have been far better off left alone).

Not terribly related to the above counter point, but good reason to be a bit suspicious of doctors in some cases (you never know what you get).

In reply to aircooled :

Oh absolutely. If you want your stomach to turn as you seethe with rage just look up the name Christopher Duntsch. There are some with callous disregard or ill intent in every profession...

That said I've been lurking in this thread from near the beginning and when I saw that video posted I had to speak up. She is a Known Crazy Person™ who appears in the name of many fringe causes and should not be taken seriously.

Not so coincidentally she also has a book coming out next month so she clearly has a financial interest in stoking some controversy...

Over the last couple months, I've been convinced that there are no truths or facts to be found in the media relating to anything that can be used to steer political and social agendas. And the "Off-Topic Discussion" section is part of  'the media'.

Don't mind me now while I "must wear a surgical mask at all times for 14 days." due to an asymptomatic trauma patient who tested positive after being dropped off at the hospital.

Yes, sadly, now more then ever people must effectively "question everything"

Sad, but true (you might want to check me on this ).

Not a single HIPAA violation in that video, they were very careful to remove identifying information.  Even if one tenth of the stuff she is talking about is true, it is pretty horrifying. 

I would be much more skeptical if I had not heard similar concerns from many, many medical professionals.  Nothing wrong with attacking a source, or dismissing someone as a crazy person, but that really does nothing to address what they have to say.

aircooled said:

Yes, sadly, now more then ever people must effectively "question everything"

Sad, but true (you might want to check me on this ).

I already did. You were wrong but I was letting it slide this time. 

Toebra said:

I would be much more skeptical if I had not heard similar concerns from many, many medical professionals.  Nothing wrong with attacking a source, or dismissing someone as a crazy person, but that really does nothing to address what they have to say.

You're correct, but if it is so prevalent, I want to see and here it from credible sources. 

EDIT: I recommend you watch the ZDogg video I linked: https://zdoggmd.com/undercover-nurse/

He starts it with this: 

 

ZDoggMD examines and debunks the claims of a widely circulated video about what it's like to be in the epicenter of the pandemic. Following is a partial transcript:

Hey everyone, it's Dr. Z. It's time for another debunking of a BS YouTube exposé on the pandemic.

Before we did "Plandemic," which was pretty obvious within 30 seconds of watching that video, I detected crazy sauce all over it. And I was just angry that anyone would have believed it. The video I'm gonna review today is called "Perspectives on the Pandemic," the undercover epicenter nurse. And about a billion people have sent it to me as usual, just came out and already has about 100,000 views despite being over an hour long.

And, this one's tricky because you start watching it, and you ... it takes awhile to figure out that this person is insane. But it does take time, and you can use your critical thinking toolkit to actually debunk this systematically.

So that's what I wanna do with you guys, because I'll tell you going into this video, I actually kind of have a bias that sides with the nurse who is purporting to expose our mismanagement and murder of patients with COVID at an epicenter hospital, Elmhurst in New York in Queens.

And, the reason is that a lot of the things she talks about are things that, you know, I've seen. So, mismanagement, over-treatment, financial incentives that don't align with the actual care of the patient, not listening to patients' wishes, those kinds of things. So, I'm already like on her side, like, I want to believe what she's saying. And despite that, I don't believe a single word that she says, even though there's truth sprinkled through the video in terms of conceptual truth.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/TPqfY2F2KR8 

It sounds like much of what she may be misinterpreting is from simple ignorance of what is going on (e.g. people not tested as COVID positive being treated as such) and her lack of specific experience. So, some of it may (at least initially) be innocent misinterpretation.

The part about the DNR.... well... that sounds pretty bad.  I have not looked at them, but do any of the counter points mention that part?  Not sure how you defend that.

One part that I found a bit strange is how emotional she gets.  I can tell you, coming from a family with an RN and a paramedic in it, they are pretty hard core in that aspect, they have seen a lot.  The only time I saw my sister a little shook up by something was after she was first on the scene of a friend of her's and his brother spinning in and crashing in a plane near her house.  The brother was dead in the back seat.

But hey, people are different.  She may not be cut out for that type of job tough.

ZDogg?  Total "influencer".   Exactly what I avoid.  Not to say that the nurse is solid, but I'm not tuning in to this guy.   Oh E36 M3, I'm posting in off-topic again. never mind, back to the cars...

AAZCD (Forum Supporter) said:

ZDogg?  Total "influencer".   Exactly what I avoid.  Not to say that the nurse is solid, but I'm not tuning in to this guy.   Oh E36 M3, I'm posting in off-topic again. never mind, back to the cars...

 

Hey, I totally agree with you. My only defense is that I’ll challenge you to find anything that was directionally incorrect (he uses plenty of hyperbole) or was incorrect at the time of his statement. 

I'm curious about choosing the delivery method of youtube. I know there have been successful uses of dropping something via media to create real change. A good example is Nellie Bly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nellie_Bly).

BUT, it seems to me that if you have evidence of something that is already very illegal - like murder - I would think the better choice would be to work with law enforcement. In fact, I think that if evidence gets released via media like this that it becomes almost useless in a real court case because it becomes so sensationalized and politicized instantly. Now, if you already presented your case to law enforcement and got no traction, then media might be a good next step. But I doubt that happened here.

Just seems very odd to me that this type of information is released primarily on youtube. 

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Did you actually think they were making these videos for the betterment of man kind?

They aren't. 

They are making these videos for the same reason that many media outlets suck at actually disseminating news. Sensationalism, page clicks, and money. They will never let a fact get in the way of increasing their market share. Even the facts they actually get correct are frequently presented in a way to encourage outrage because that is what generates page and video views. 

The people actually doing the good works are the ones you will never hear from and frequently don't hear about. 

Looks like there is some minor roll back in the opening thing.  CA is now requiring masks for the state and I saw Tampa is making them a requirement also (I suspect other areas also).

I don't see it as unreasonable in general.  Common courtesy really.  The only issues I see are with people exercising (just wearing one on a hot day is uncomfortable).  Even exercising though, just keep one (scarf / hanky) on hand, if you are near people, put it on or hold it over your mouth and nose.

This seems to be a response to rising case rates, but it doesn't look like there is much of a spike in hospitalization (CA doesn't seem to even report hospitalization rates!)  Either way, not a bad idea.

Meanwhile, with basically zero fanfare or coverage, Indiana has released the preliminary results from "wave 2" of their randomized, statewide COVID study. This makes it the only study in the US with multiple waves of truly random sampling.

Discussion begins around the 15:00 mark of this video from the Governor's weekly briefing (not a Youtube influencer).

Highlights include a lower percentage of active cases, and a higher percentage of people with antibodies present as the state has continued to loosen restrictions. Still 40-45% of cases asymptomatic. Non-whites are having higher percentages of active COVID and the presence of antibodies.

And since I haven't posted this graphic in awhile, I might as well update it too:

It's now officially over 50% of deaths in the 80+ age bracket. And 75% of the total if we look at those over age 70. And 92% of deaths have been age 60 or older while those represent under 30% of the total confirmed "cases".

Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Did you actually think they were making these videos for the betterment of man kind?

They aren't. 

They are making these videos for the same reason that many media outlets suck at actually disseminating news. Sensationalism, page clicks, and money. They will never let a fact get in the way of increasing their market share. Even the facts they actually get correct are frequently presented in a way to encourage outrage because that is what generates page and video views. 

The people actually doing the good works are the ones you will never hear from and frequently don't hear about. 

 

That was my point. If their goal was to make change for the better, they would have probably picked a different action path. 

I am familiar with the Zdog guy's act, impossible for me to take  him seriously. 

The story that nurse focused on for a large part of that video was about a 37 year old man.  He was a full code, the opposite of a DNR(do not resuscitate) where they do CPR and everything to save you.  There were three different nurses commiserating about it in the video, talking about how they did not have a DNR order in the chart, but were being told not to do anything if the patient coded, in violation of the patient's wishes and the law.  Were all those nurses lying or making it up?  Maybe the woman in the video I posted is a total nutball, but it was important enough to her that she is willing to give up her career, and there is too much of her stories that ring true, because I have seen crap like that happen in hospitals.

What action path do you think the nurse should have taken?  Do you think that all whistleblowers are suspect?

Raise it up with the New York Board of Health, and report the specific doctors that refused? Tell people that they were being filmed? Show the other side of the argument (not saying there was another side for all of her points, but for many there are). 

As for "it was important enough to her that she is willing to give up her career"... Well, she did this video to garner attention for the book that she is releasing. She's playing everyone, for her own personal profit. I'm not saying she doesn't raise up good points that need to be talked about. They do. But her video should not be getting the attention it is. 

I also find it interesting that you'll give this video serious attention, but not the "debunking" video of it by Zdogg. Again, not claiming ZDogg is perfect and everyone needs to follow him - but he's also, IN MY OPINION ethical and at worst prone to hyperbole. And if I'm wrong on that, please, tell me why - I am always open to changing my stance on something if there is valid reason to. 

EDIT: Just FYI, for the record, I have watched the entire video. I agree, there are some fishy things that seem to be going on. But we do not know the whole story, and the video didn't even attempt to show another side. 

In reply to Toebra :

Do I think all whistleblowers are suspect? Not necessarily - but they shouldn't be considered 100% truthful by default either.

Do I think a whistleblower's intent and credibility is questionable if they post videos on YouTube instead of seeking legal action? Yes.

I haven't watched this video. I don't plan to. The number of hour long videos that I have seen on YouTube that ARENT conspiracy theories is vanishingly small.

STM317 said:

Meanwhile, with basically zero fanfare or coverage, Indiana has released the preliminary results from "wave 2" of their randomized, statewide COVID study. This makes it the only study in the US with multiple waves of truly random sampling.

Discussion begins around the 15:00 mark of this video from the Governor's weekly briefing (not a Youtube influencer).

Highlights include a lower percentage of active cases, and a higher percentage of people with antibodies present as the state has continued to loosen restrictions. Still 40-45% of cases asymptomatic. Non-whites are having higher percentages of active COVID and the presence of antibodies.

And since I haven't posted this graphic in awhile, I might as well update it too:

 

 

It's now officially over 50% of deaths in the 80+ age bracket. And 75% of the total if we look at those over age 70. And 92% of deaths have been age 60 or older while those represent under 30% of the total confirmed "cases".

Indiana has been looking very good. 

I wonder if a large part of that is due to the fact that Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois all locked down pretty hard pretty early (and Michigan's outbreak was, IIRC, basically "Detroit"). I'd also expect that most of Indiana's cases are in Chicagoland. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Toebra :

Do I think all whistleblowers are suspect? Not necessarily - but they shouldn't be considered 100% truthful by default either.

Do I think a whistleblower's intent and credibility is questionable if they post videos on YouTube instead of seeking legal action? Yes.

I haven't watched this video. I don't plan to. The number of hour long videos that I have seen on YouTube that ARENT conspiracy theories is vanishingly small.

That's kind of like:

"Oh the A/C blows cold, just needs a charge."
"Oh it will start right up, just needs a new battery."

So instead of doing those things you give up hundreds or thousands in value because of "reasons." That's how I feel about people who participate in those videos.




 

mtn (Forum Supporter) said:

STM317 said:

Meanwhile, with basically zero fanfare or coverage, Indiana has released the preliminary results from "wave 2" of their randomized, statewide COVID study. This makes it the only study in the US with multiple waves of truly random sampling.

Discussion begins around the 15:00 mark of this video from the Governor's weekly briefing (not a Youtube influencer).

Highlights include a lower percentage of active cases, and a higher percentage of people with antibodies present as the state has continued to loosen restrictions. Still 40-45% of cases asymptomatic. Non-whites are having higher percentages of active COVID and the presence of antibodies.

And since I haven't posted this graphic in awhile, I might as well update it too:

 

 

It's now officially over 50% of deaths in the 80+ age bracket. And 75% of the total if we look at those over age 70. And 92% of deaths have been age 60 or older while those represent under 30% of the total confirmed "cases".

Indiana has been looking very good. 

I wonder if a large part of that is due to the fact that Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois all locked down pretty hard pretty early (and Michigan's outbreak was, IIRC, basically "Detroit"). I'd also expect that most of Indiana's cases are in Chicagoland. 

It's going be very interesting to see how horrible cases in Oklahoma spike after this weekend. There have already been people from all over the country camping in front of the BOK center in Tulsa for Trump's rally tomorrow.

z31maniac said:

 

It's going be very interesting to see how horrible cases in Oklahoma spike after this weekend. There have already been people from all over the country camping in front of the BOK center in Tulsa for Trump's rally tomorrow.

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

Personally I doubt it. When we started opening up several weeks back out of state traffic went through the roof. that first week restraunts were open I swear I saw more Illinois plates than Indiana.

bobzilla said:

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

Personally I doubt it. When we started opening up several weeks back out of state traffic went through the roof. that first week restraunts were open I swear I saw more Illinois plates than Indiana.

But that first week, in theory, those Illinoisans wouldn't have had any to spread since they were all locked down the weeks prior. That and in your neck of the woods, they were probably coming from Champaign where there weren't many outbreaks.

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

I'm on the main corridor from Indy to Chicago. These were Chicago cars. Northern Indiana was in the same "lockdown "