From what I see, people (young and old) are basically the same as they ever were... It's just that those who were once the young ones complaining about the old ones, are now the old ones complaining about the young ones. This is a perpetually repeating cycle, as is using sampling biased anecdotes to reinforce those skewed perceptions and stereotypes.
Honestly, the young employees I have worked with are as intelligent, hard working, quality conscious, and ambitious as anybody else in the building, if not more so. If they don't stick around, the company need only look in the mirror to find out why.
If an industry is having trouble attracting and retaining employees, then the blame lies with the industry leaders rather than the employment pool they're trying to hire from. The more you piss in the pool, the more of a toilet it becomes.
Edit only limited wage information but still valid for federal work rates for trades.
Sorry the triplicate post.
You can google Davis Bacon wages for your area and find sources on .GOV websites that appear in results.
Toyman! said:So, are parents teaching their kids to just give up?
We're not.
DD#1 is in her early 30s and works pretty hard. She has paid off her college loans (did that within 5 years of graduating), bought her own car - 2, actually - and plans to buy a house within the next year. She's also putting money away for retirement. She will probably never get married (a personal choice for her) and she has actively decided against having children (that's driven by fatalism, admittedly). But she sure hasn't given up.
DD#2 isn't quite as self-actuating as all that, but she's providing for herself. She's in her late 20s, has been living with a guy for a while. I imagine they will get married and have a kid or two in the next 5-10 years. Her boyfriend seems to have an active career path in mind as well.
Advan046 said:Edit only limited wage information but still valid for federal work rates for trades.
Government project "prevailing wage rates" have almost nothing to do with actual, real-world wage rates in the private sector.
Toyman! said:So, are parents teaching their kids to just give up?
Because that sure isn't what I've taught my kids and all of my kids are out there doing things and enjoying life while being productive members of society.
Is this what you are equating to "giving up"?
The0retical said:It's super easy just to check out, decide that puritanical work ethic is bullE36 M3, and figure you'll just enjoy what little luxury you can afford instead of feeling like you're being squeezed for more and more productivity by a system that would happily grind you into a Soylent if it meant the line went up.
*** berkeley this quote system
Older folks aren't retiring like they used to which is keeping young folks from climbing in their career so they either leave or change careers completely.
I find that a lot of people get burnt out at a younger age now more than ever. I don't know if that means the younger generation are less resilient to unwavering work ethic or if they're less tolerant of being treated like a replaceable cog.
I've been with Uncle Sam sketchy ass for over 17 years. I wouldn't say I'm burnt out but there are times where I just want to hang it up. My knees, hips, hands and feet are done though lol. I'm tired of the death and violence. It didn't bother me as much (so I thought) when I was in my 20s, but kids getting smoked and seeing it up close and personal is really unwinding me now more than ever. I'm so over our "leaders" and I don't see the new generation sitting well with the things I've done, seen, gone through. They want something different for America and the world and they'll do it differently than most of yall would like. More power to them.
Different people have different ambitions, goals, and wants. There is no single metric to measure success or happiness. Do what works/or doesn't work for you and your family and let others do what works/or doesn't for them and their family.
BTW:
Everyone is so on brand in here lol. None of these replies surprise me. It's like I know exactly who will say what. I must be getting to know yall lol
In reply to yupididit :
That last comment: for real
Duke said:Advan046 said:Edit only limited wage information but still valid for federal work rates for trades.
Government project "prevailing wage rates" have almost nothing to do with actual, real-world wage rates in the private sector.
I agree.
Plus it's a specific project in Selma AL. I drive through Selma AL every week- what a wasteland. There is absolutely nothing about road worker laborers in Selma AL that has ANYTHING to do with industry construction wages.
Im clueless what the point of that was.
Duke said:Advan046 said:Edit only limited wage information but still valid for federal work rates for trades.
Government project "prevailing wage rates" have almost nothing to do with actual, real-world wage rates in the private sector.
Definitely let me know how so? I have heard these same statements but then mid contract. I randomly interview workers they tell me the wages are lower than what they are paid, others higher, and once a guys said he only works federal construction so he didn't know. Please give me insight.
In reply to SV reX :
I read several posts asking for actual numbers. I thought I found a good link but after the fact realized it was a limited list. Sorry for wasting thread space. 
None of this is new. Everything has always been tough.
In reply to Advan046 :
In Delaware they are established by county of project , and they vary all over. Like a welder might be $90 an hour in one county and $50 20 miles away in the next county.
But historically, over the last 30 years of my experience, labor prices are about 20%-25% higher on a prevailing wage rate job funded directly through the state compared to a similar project (even one for a state agency) that isn't required to use published rates.
Some trade rates are lower, but most are higher. Over a whole project, it works out to an average of 20%. Before COVID almost everything was higher than typical.
My older son is approaching 21 and has been working at the local auto dealership as a tech since graduating. He's productive when he's there, but always gets in 10-30 minutes late, take a long lunch at his girlfriends, and will call out to go do things with friends.
I don't know why they tolerate it, but I'm sure that paying him minimum wage while charging dealer rates for his work makes it tolerable. They've told him the only thing holding him back from making 30-50% more is showing up on time, but that doesn't seem to motivate him. Living at home he's got enough money to go to his girlfriends parents camper each weekend, hang out with friend and put gas in his truck. I'm sure eventually he'll get some motivation and want more, but his girlfriend is unemployed and living at home and his friends are in school, so right now he's happy with what he has. He has started saving regularly, so a step in the right direction.
My younger son is 15, works as a hockey coach for learn to skate/play, is looking to pick up extra coaching sessions whenever possible. He's saving for things he wants (certain sneakers, clothes, etc that I won't buy him)
Same parents, same household, yet completely different approaches to work.
I keep reminding myself about what I was like when their ages. I had phases where I went through both of their approaches, and am now looking at it from a much different point in life than them.
When I was in college having enough money to pay bills and go out with friends was all I needed, it took a while to get rolling with the motivation and drive to work towards longer term goals.
Many of the young folks will eventually find their way to work toward goals in their own time, but that doesn't address the shortages of workers that will happen over the next 10-15 years.
Flynlow said:Toyman! said:In reply to NOHOME :
We are having a discussion about young people and how they are feeling disenfranchised, so someone is.
I have 4. My eldest son has 4. All of his friends have 2-4. My 3rd is getting married next year and they are planning on 2.
Possibly a better question for this thread would be: How many kids are your employees having?
One has 5. One has 3 and a grandchild. One has 2. Two of them have zero but one of them is only 21.
The original question was "Where are all the younger folks?"
Toyman and his clan not withstanding, the fertility rate in the USA has been below replacement rate since 2008 ( aprox). Currently around 1.6 babies per female unit. That number is never going to get anything but smaller.
Is it safe to say that they don't/won't exist?
Toyman! said:Flynlow said:Toyman! said:In reply to NOHOME :
We are having a discussion about young people and how they are feeling disenfranchised, so someone is.
I have 4. My eldest son has 4. All of his friends have 2-4. My 3rd is getting married next year and they are planning on 2.
Possibly a better question for this thread would be: How many kids are your employees having?
One has 5. One has 3 and a grandchild. One has 2. Two of them have zero but one of them is only 21.
Appreciate the data. I know my request may have come off as snarky, genuinely wasn't intended that way, I was curious. Good discussion.
NOHOME said:The original question was "Where are all the younger folks?"
Toyman and his clan not withstanding, the fertility rate in the USA has been below replacement rate since 2008 ( aprox). Currently around 1.6 babies per female unit. That number is never going to get anything but smaller.
Is it safe to say that they don't/won't exist?
I don't think lack of people is the problem. Birth rates are lower, but population is higher than it's ever been and we're living longer and therefore working longer.
With technology making people redundant do we need the replacement rate? The most extreme is example is farming grain: something like 2% of the people is needed compared to 100 years ago.
Regarding the OP: younger people are out there, they're just not drawn to construction.
In reply to j_tso :
That's fair. And perhaps my reality.
I love building, and always have. I'm proud of my craft. I am part of a generation who valued and respected tradesmen and the ability to build things. I don't do it because I can't get a better job. I do it because I love building spaces for people and making all of our lives better. I chose construction after I already tried the office environments and found them abysmal.
I also hear the struggle that young people are having with jobs, and want them to have something better. Something like what I have.
Im not able to relate to a world where contentment is rare and people don't value and take pride in what they contribute to society.
It's just how I am.
NOHOME said:Toyman and his clan not withstanding, the fertility rate in the USA has been below replacement rate since 2008 ( aprox). Currently around 1.6 babies per female unit. That number is never going to get anything but smaller.
Not directing this at anyone, but wasn't the increasing population a big concern a few decades ago?
Now it seems to be decreasing, is that considered problem?
Nothing wrong with living cheap so you don't have to work as hard.
Wife unit and I cashed out so we could own our house free and clear before we turned 75. I'm 45, I have no debt. Not having to make that $2000 nut every month to give to the bank sure makes it easier.
Yeah, I don't live in the California of Canada anymore but I like where I live now and I don't have to listen to my neighbour run his leaf blower all weekend long.
As for the hazing in the trades, I like to think it's gone way down over the years.
Boss and I were the same age and we got it pretty rough when we were apprentices, nothing like the older guys who I've talked to. Their treatment was borderline homicidal.
The only hazing our guys got was getting chirped on a bit but it was probably less than you'd hear at an average hockey game.
No Time said:NOHOME said:Toyman and his clan not withstanding, the fertility rate in the USA has been below replacement rate since 2008 ( aprox). Currently around 1.6 babies per female unit. That number is never going to get anything but smaller.
Not directing this at anyone, but wasn't the increasing population a big concern a few decades ago?
Now it seems to be decreasing, is that considered problem?
All change is a problem. Good news is that humans are pretty good at problem solving.
To get a preview, look at what is happening in Japan, Korea and Italy with the countrysides vacuumed clean of young people. I expect to see the same happen on a global scale. Young people will congregated in fewer and fewer but more densely populated global centers to do the business of humanity. Some form of balance will emerge.
In reply to NOHOME :
Sooooo ......
yupididit said:I find that a lot of people get burnt out at a younger age now more than ever. I don't know if that means the younger generation are less resilient to unwavering work ethic or if they're less tolerant of being treated like a replaceable cog.
This is more a factor of modern life than anything different with newer generation. Objectively, individual productivity has shot up an amazing amount over the last 50-100 years. What that practically means is that everyone is expected to do 4x the work that the same sort of position did 50 years ago. That means that your brain needs to be on 100% of the time.
Take something like classical engineering/product design. Pre/early-computers, an engineer would come up with the overall design, hand off material selection to jr engineers, hand off drawing and production duties to drafters and PMs, etc.
Now, that same engineer has to do all material selections, modeling, FEA, drafting, etc, while coordinating with the CAM programmers/production engineering at wherever they outsourced the production to.
That's a lot of mental switching, so I see a lot of burnout in my industry (CNC programming/manufacturing) and adjacent careers such as engineering and product design.
SV reX said:In reply to j_tso :
Im not able to relate to a world where contentment is rare and people don't value and take pride in what they contribute to society.
Where in the world does it say this anywhere about young people?
The younger generations take just as much pride, if not more pride, in their positive contributions to society (the world) than older generations. Those contributions just aren't associated with their work hours and willingness to be tied to the rules/parameters/culture of capitalism for workers.
What are you not able to relate to?A lack of understanding might not be your fault. I feel like 2 generations of separation causes this misunderstanding.
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