If you can't take a realist look at the world, Iggy, that's OK with me. Go back to MSNBC and CNN. They NEVER slant things or make it up completely and always look at things from both sides.
If you can't take a realist look at the world, Iggy, that's OK with me. Go back to MSNBC and CNN. They NEVER slant things or make it up completely and always look at things from both sides.
Dr. Hess said:If you can't take a realist look at the world, Iggy, that's OK with me. Go back to MSNBC and CNN. They NEVER slant things or make it up completely and always look at things from both sides.
Ok Boomer. You getting news from ZeroHedge is like me getting medical advice from Reddit. Might be good. Could be 100% accurate. But you should be smarter than that.
Please dont get this thread locked. The original topic remains an important enough one that I’d like to stay informed. Take the politics and snide remarks to PM, please.
Flynlow said:Please dont get this thread locked. The original topic remains an important enough one that I’d like to stay informed. Take the politics and snide remarks to PM, please.
+1
ha.. someone just got OK boomered..
looks like the Japanese are going to let the remaining "prisoners" off the cruise ship and not hold them for 14 days but let them go into "the wild"
Stupid move if they do it , Hopefully someone will wake up and see how that will let the virus spread in Japan.
californiamilleghia said:looks like the Japanese are going to let the remaining "prisoners" off the cruise ship and not hold them for 14 days but let them go into "the wild"
Stupid move if they do it , Hopefully someone will wake up and see how that will let the virus spread in Japan.
Wow, that's dumb.
californiamilleghia said:looks like the Japanese are going to let the remaining "prisoners" off the cruise ship and not hold them for 14 days but let them go into "the wild"
Stupid move if they do it , Hopefully someone will wake up and see how that will let the virus spread in Japan.
I agree with this as my gut reaction, but I also think that Japan would be much better equipped to deal with an outbreak than China. Not sure why I think that specifically, other than I'd expect Japan to be able to treat the patients with more than a pain killer and hydration.
But yeah, keeping them quarantined makes sense from what I've ascertained from it. Not that anyone is asking me, nor should they.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/sen-tom-cotton-coronavirus-origins
Sen. Tom Cotton stands by startling theory on coronavirus origins: 'We need to be open to all possibilities'
Last I've heard, half the country of China is now quarantined? That's like what, a 1/10th of the human population?
Dr. Hess said:https://www.foxnews.com/media/sen-tom-cotton-coronavirus-origins
Sen. Tom Cotton stands by startling theory on coronavirus origins: 'We need to be open to all possibilities'
I know that when I want an informed medical opinion I always turn to a former Infantry Officer
Dr. Hess said:https://www.foxnews.com/media/sen-tom-cotton-coronavirus-origins
Sen. Tom Cotton stands by startling theory on coronavirus origins: 'We need to be open to all possibilities'
Did you happen to read the study he cited from The Lancet? Seems to indicate it probably came from the market, probably not directly from bats, and nothing to indicate that it was from a lab... Unless you're implying that the Chinese government created the virus in a lab, infected bats with it, which then infected an intermediary host before infecting humans? And the Chinese would do this to their own people... Why??? You're grasping at straws here. It is unhelpful at best and harmful at worst. Stop disseminating debunked fringe theories.
These data are consistent with a bat reservoir for coronaviruses in general and for 2019-nCoV in particular. However, despite the importance of bats, several facts suggest that another animal is acting as an intermediate host between bats and humans. First, the outbreak was first reported in late December, 2019, when most bat species in Wuhan are hibernating. Second, no bats were sold or found at the Huanan seafood market, whereas various non-aquatic animals (including mammals) were available for purchase. Third, the sequence identity between 2019-nCoV and its close relatives bat-SL-CoVZC45 and bat-SL-CoVZXC21 was less than 90%, which is reflected in the relatively long branch between them. Hence, bat-SL-CoVZC45 and bat-SL-CoVZXC21 are not direct ancestors of 2019-nCoV. Fourth, in both SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV, bats acted as the natural reservoir, with another animal (masked palm civet for SARS-CoV
and dromedary camels for MERS-CoV)acting as an intermediate host, with humans as terminal hosts. Therefore, on the basis of current data, it seems likely that the 2019-nCoV causing the Wuhan outbreak might also be initially hosted by bats, and might have been transmitted to humans via currently unknown wild animal(s) sold at the Huanan seafood market.
Sorry, but a sitting Senator discussing the questionable source of this virus is hardly a "fringe theory." He says he doesn't know, but refuses to just buy in the "bat soup" theory. Also note that the "non-fringe theories" coming from such media as the NYT:
"It tells you the Chinese Communist Party, just like any communist party, has a widespread propaganda effort and regrettably The Washington Post and New York Times have taken millions and millions of dollars from something called 'China Daily' to run so-called inserts that purport to be news but in reality are Chinese propaganda," Cotton claimed.
Your complete closed mind is hardly being helpful at best, and is harmful at worst.
Dr. Hess said:Sorry, but a sitting Senator discussing the questionable source of this virus is hardly a "fringe theory." He says he doesn't know, but refuses to just buy in the "bat soup" theory. Also note that the "non-fringe theories" coming from such media as the NYT:
"It tells you the Chinese Communist Party, just like any communist party, has a widespread propaganda effort and regrettably The Washington Post and New York Times have taken millions and millions of dollars from something called 'China Daily' to run so-called inserts that purport to be news but in reality are Chinese propaganda," Cotton claimed.
I'm sorry, what is coming from the NYT? All I see is a Tom Cotton quote. Care to share the rest of the context for your NYT source here?
Dr. Hess said:https://www.foxnews.com/media/sen-tom-cotton-coronavirus-origins
Sen. Tom Cotton stands by startling theory on coronavirus origins: 'We need to be open to all possibilities'
While that particular statement is not incorrect, and I'm not saying that it's impossible that through some unlikely sequence of events it could have originated at that lab, the entire basis of his ever changing (continually walking it back) argument hammering that one particular possibility has zero actual evidence to support it and seems to get debunked at every turn.
Sen. Tom Cotton said:
Some random people on the internet said it's bio-weapon!...What's that? Not a bio-weapon?...Ok, well...ummm...Some random people on the internet said patient zero worked there!...What's that? She left the institute in 2015 and isn't actually patient zero?...Ok, well...Ummm...We need to be open to all possibilities, so that I can save at least a little face here!
He is not actually being open to (all) the possibilities claimed by others, even though he wants (expects) them to do for him. This is the only general possibility he has been demonstrably open to. His baseless insistence on multiple variations of this one particular unsubstantiated narrative is undermining what credibility this possibility might have otherwise had. At this point, even if it does end up proving to have come from some type of escape at the lab, that still does not in any way make him (or any of his conspiracy theory starting/parroting sources) at all in the right if the fundamental basis for coming to that conclusion was incorrect.
In Suriname news today,
reports out of China that chloroquine, an anti-malarial drug that's been out for about 90 years or so, is helping coronavirus patients. The Belgians found this when working on SARS virus in 2004, but ran out of SARS patients to try it on.
Dr. Hess said:Your complete closed mind is hardly being helpful at best, and is harmful at worst
Pot, meet Kettle. I don't care if it's a "sitting senator" or the President of the US, somebody's title does not give them any more inherent credibility on subjects of which they have absolutely zero first hand knowledge or experience. Politicians (from both sides) will ALWAYS cherry pick their sources (regardless of credibility, or lack there of) to support whichever narrative suits their personal agenda best, with little to no regard for the truth.
Well the Japanese let the prisoners off the cruise ship and into the "wild" today
the USA has said they will have to do the 2 weeks quarantine once they get back to the USA.
Not sure what other countries are doing , but it does not seem like a smart move for the Japanese to let all these people just go into the Japanese population ,
I guess we will find out in a couple weeks if this was as bad as it looks now !
Driven5 said:Dr. Hess said:Find me something that's wrong. Maybe the part where they quote CNN and the NYT?
How about that they didn't quote CNN and NYT...They quoted the personal opinion social media post of what appears to be a freelance photographer who has had photographs used by CNN and NYT at some point in time. So it seems to be the completely unsubstantiated claims of a pandering Senator (who even acknowledges that there is zero evidence to support his claim) and a photographer vs actual experts within this particular field of study:
“There’s absolutely nothing in the genome sequence of this virus that indicates the virus was engineered,” said Richard Ebright, a professor of chemical biology at Rutgers University.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/16/tom-cotton-coronavirus-conspiracy/
So the "freelance photographer" gets bylines froim the NYT for articles in which he has no photo credits:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/world/asia/hong-kong-airport-protest.html
Interestingly, he also has written for the Seattle times:https://www.seattletimes.com/author/ezra-cheung/
Both articles focus on issues in the Far East. Seems like that is his area of focus. Who knew?
An archived summary of the study he was quoting is here:https://archive.is/eHOIk (SPOILER: It makes a case for the possible lab transmission origin)
Furthermore, here is a report published in Asia Timeshttps://asiatimes.com/2020/02/coronavirus-lab-leakage-rumors-spreading/ , which reports that Richard Ebright told the BBC: "Richard Ebright, a biology professor at Rutgers University in New Jersey, told the BBC that genomic sequencing of the coronavirus showed no proof that it had been artificially modified, yet he could not rule out the possibility that the unfolding pandemic could be the result of a “lab incident" (bold emphasis mine.)
The report then goes on to mention stories published in the Lancet which indicate there indeed is speculation to the origins, and it being a very real possibility that it broke out of a lab.:
"Also, a paper that appeared in the prestigious medical journal The Lancet at the end of last month has lent credibility to speculation about the origins of the virus. The paper quoted seven doctors at Wuhan’s Jinyintan Hospital as saying that the first patient admitted on December 1 had “never been to the wet market,” nor had there been any epidemiological link between the first patient and subsequent infection cases, based on the data from the first 41 patients treated there.
Furthermore, a note from the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology is seen as a tacit admission that some kind of incident may have occurred at the Wuhan lab."
The linked articles and studies above are Chinese in origin.
In closing, it seems like there is valid speculation, both in the US as well as within China, that the origin of human transmission for this disease indeed started in a lab, not because some poor soul ate bat soup.
Until (if ever) China is willing to drop the veil of secrecy and allow other nations to investigate (and assist), the rest of the world will be stuck on the defensive, as opposed to the offensive in combatting this disease
In reply to Eurotrash_Ranch :
That's great and all, but misses my main point entirely. Perhaps you'll catch on by reading the rest of my posts since that one.
Spoiler: Valid conclusions absolutely cannot be drawn from speculation, and the inherently rampant spread of speculation in the absence of facts/data ultimately does more harm than good,
FWIW I appreciate the debate going on in this thread. Thanks to those of you who know stuff and are passionate about their views. Keep it professional and polite but please keep it up!
What is our objective…
Protect the innocent by placing the burden of proof on the accuser (i.e. assume the virus didn’t originate in a lab in the absence of definitive evidence that it did).
Identify the most probable explanation (set alpha risk “saying lab when not lab” and beta risk “not saying lab when lab” at the same level). In this case, the fact that the virus broke out within ~1,000’ of a Level 4 bio lab in a country of 3.7 million square miles is wildly, wildly unlikely to happen by chance.
Didn't a senator once use the fear of communism as a political weapon to not only punish people he didn't like to also to gain notoriety? Yeah I trust everything they say.
RX Reven' said:What is our objective…
Protect the innocent by placing the burden of proof on the accuser (i.e. assume the virus didn’t originate in a wild animal market in the absence of definitive evidence that it did).
Identify the most probable explanation (set alpha risk “saying wild animal market when not wild animal market” and beta risk “not saying wild animal market when wild anmimal market” at the same level). In this case, the fact that the virus broke out within ~1,000’ of a wild animal market in a country of 3.7 million square miles is wildly, wildly unlikely to happen by chance.
Altered to show the equal and opposite speculative argument.
I'm still not seeing what the big deal is, but it sure does make a great distraction doesn't it?
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