I am going to add I the SVT Mustang to the list. That will make 10 possible choices.

I really like how this set of cars worked out. The parity between cars is very good with the tuning rules.

If we use this we will alow transmission adjustments. I am still pondering brake bias adjustments. I would really like to keep this as non tuner as possible.

The racing last night with these was very close. It seemed like there were a lot of very good battles around the track.

I am also pushing for these cars to be run with the grab bag rule set that Air came up with but with one small change. If you win a the race event you loose the car (no second use of the car). Also I would like to add in a stepped bonus system that adds five pp to the last place car and that is carried forward race to race (it would be cumulative). You loose five pp bonus by winning a race event. The idea is to try and get as much parity in the series as possible. Keeping the racing very tight on track as well as in the points. It would be great to have everything come down to the last race of the season.

The other car I liked was the little ff race car. That, at max tune, was fun. It is definitely a FF car but very easy to drive.

The other ff cars were less than exciting. I think they need more power and tires.

The 90s cars are fun but for what ever reason we seem to get spread out in them. This is good as it prevents crashing.

Dean, running the mm-R cup car right before the Alfa definitely made it feel lackluster. Plus, that was a test for a stock series. I suggest that we always run the inferior car series/tires first, so it feels like we are upgrading instead of downgrading. The 90s cars will rely on tuning, so we won't be tight if we don't have good tunes in our cars or aren't familiar with them. I will also test another offbeat car to replace my Evolution X test.

The American Muscle series does seem interesting and to work pretty well. The Camaro in Mudd's hands seemed to be a force to be reckoned with, but the proposed rule set prevents any real ringer possibility. I also like the mm-R cup car, and it produced some pretty close racing. I'd be fine running either or both of those.

I was mildly disappointed with the F40 race. I finally figured out how to drive it the last couple laps of practice and was less than a tenth off Spool's qualifying time. I had hoped to give him a run for his money but went off in the T1-T2 complex trying to avoid Air and that was the end.

The MMC 1550/510 Rule Set.

I recommend tuning cars in the order as I list the requirements.

• Race hard tires
• Fully adjustable race suspension installed with no modifications
• Fully adjustable transmission. Max speed adjustments only to suite the track. No dif or individual gearing changes.
• Adjust weight by any means to get to 1550kg. No moving of weight for or aft in the car.
• Adjust power to get to the 510PP using a maximum of 90% on the power limiter.

The Master Car List

All testing times noted after the cars are from Grand Valley East with the above 1550/510 rule set

• Ford Mustang Boss 302 2013 45,000 North America Premium FR 1:06.8
• Ford Mustang SVT Cobra R 2000 57,300 North America Standard FR 1:06.4
• Ford Mustang V8 GT Coupe Premium 2007 48,500 North America Premium FR 1:08.1
• Ford Mustang GT 2005 25,950 North America Standard FR 1:07.6
• Chevrolet Camaro SS 2010 35,000 North America Premium FR 1:06.0
• Chevrolet Camaro SS 2000 22,150 North America Standard FR 1:07.2
• Pontiac GTO 5.7 Coupe 2004 34,490 North America Standard FR 1:07.4
• SRT Challenger SRT8 2008 40,027 North America Premium FR 1:06.3
• SRT Charger SRT8 2011 46,660 North America Premium FR 1:06.2
• Chrysler 300C 2005 34,780 North America Standard FR 1:06.0

Car descriptions from my testing at GVE.

Ford

All of the Mustangs have some under-steer. The SVT is the best balanced of the four while the GT coup Premium is the worst. All are easy to drive. Spinning them under power is possible but not easy. Of all the cars they are the least tail happy on corner exit. They respond well to getting rotation on corner entry and carrying it through a corner. Mid corner corrections are difficult. They respond well to late apexing of corners and power on as soon as possible.

• 500 Ford Mustang Boss 302 2013 45,000 North America Premium FR 1:06.8
• 476 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra R 2000 57,300 North America Standard FR 1:06.4
• 443 Ford Mustang V8 GT Coupe Premium 2007 48,500 North America Premium FR 1:08.1
• 451 Ford Mustang GT 2005 25,950 North America Standard FR 1:07.6

Chevrolet

These two cars very different. The 2010 is loose and fast. Not much more to say. It has pleanty of power if you can get it to the pavement.

The 2000 is a much more mellow car. It is very neutral. It does nothing excelent but instead does everything very well. Drive it smooth and with precision and it can be very fast. It does not take well to being tossed around.

• 498 Chevrolet Camaro SS 2010 35,000 North America Premium FR 1:06.0
• 460 Chevrolet Camaro SS 2000 22,150 North America Standard FR 1:07.2

Pontiac

Similar to the 2000 Camaro but just better. Seems to rotate better and have more overall grip. A fast car that I should probably re test as its lap time I think is probably more in the mid to high 1:06's

• 468 Pontiac GTO 5.7 Coupe 2004 34,490 North America Standard FR 1:07.4

Dodge (SRT)

These are very fast cars. They like to be short shifted. They turn in almost to well and are generally loose in all cornering situations. Master getting the power down and they will be very fast.

• 490 SRT Challenger SRT8 2008 40,027 North America Premium FR 1:06.3
• 498 SRT Charger SRT8 2011 46,660 North America Premium FR 1:06.2

Chrysler

The wild card. Lots of power and extremely loose especially on turn in. You think about turning in and it will start to go towards the apex but the tail end will immediately then try to get there first. It can brake the tires loose at any point in a corner. One of the most fun to drive but it will bite you at any time. It is however one of the fastest cars in my testing. The car for the up and coming crime boss that just could not afford the Bentley.

• 456 Chrysler 300C 2005 34,780 North America Standard FR 1:06.0

Running the modern muscle cars or the MMR cup as the 4th series this season would both be great. I was worried the full turbo on the MMR would make the car have too much wheelspin but it only made the car better. The muscle cars are sort of heavy pigs that can dance. As long as you brake enough for turns they are mostly fairly neutral but each has its nuances. I like the grab bag idea for these. I think since we are already running the lightweight 500F and the lightweight Elise race car, I would probably throw my vote to the modern muscle cars.

Side note: I did try the Holden Commodore on our Trial Mountain race. Could be another option, like a Pontiac G8.

Nascar was also fun, I think we'd have to put a little more thought into that and it could be a future series contender. We could potentially restrictor plate the cars down to less hp, allow some or all tuning, run a spec suspension setup etc... I was running the career nascar races and adding a road course suspension and diff tune that I snagged from gtplanet made the car much much easier to drive.

e30Matt wrote: The American Muscle series does seem interesting and to work pretty well. The Camaro in Mudd's hands seemed to be a force to be reckoned with, but the proposed rule set prevents any real ringer possibility. I also like the mm-R cup car, and it produced some pretty close racing. I'd be fine running either or both of those. I was mildly disappointed with the F40 race. I finally figured out how to drive it the last couple laps of practice and was less than a tenth off Spool's qualifying time. I had hoped to give him a run for his money but went off in the T1-T2 complex trying to avoid Air and that was the end.

I agree with your assessment of the "Modern Muscle cars". I think it would be a very fun close series that would have some great battles. Again I am trying to make the cars and the series as close as possible. Keep the parity between cars and drivers. In an ideal race I want a pack of 8 or 10 cars coming to the line at the end of the race scrapping it out 2, 3 or even 4 wide at the finish line.

I to would like a rematch with the F40. As a one off event it is a blast. A series would end badly . It was a hand full at first but after a couple of laps I actually really liked it. I was also able to hang with Spool for the first couple laps but over drove the car in the esses and that was that.

Aaaand the 90's tuner cars were great. I guess maybe we did get split up into groups on track, but I always seemed to be mixing it up with at least 3-4 cars for the whole race.

Punting Dean. Sorry Bud. If I come in a little hot with this car, it WILL turn in great, but then gets into a slide, Not a problem if no one is there but you happened to be outside of me in this case. This is why we test and practice right?

I forgot to save the F40 race. I had already decided in practice I was going to hang back and drift the whole track. Managed to drift the big sweeper nice and smooth a few times, didnt quite link turns 1 and 2 straight through but all the S sections of the track were pretty easy to link together.

The only two lock's for next season are 90's Japinees and the F500 (due to Mudd and Sauce having a choice in things) I should note that either of them could change there prefrence and lock in another if they feel like it.

The Lotus a great car and very different than the other cars. For this reason it makes it a stand out. The Modern muscle cars are in many ways the polar opposite of the Lotus and that to makes them stand out.

As long as what ever we race lends it self to close racing I am game. What I never want to happen again is a repeat of the Jr Touring Car series. That was a disaster I don't want to repeat. I think because of that we lost a lot of people and we are only now getting new people back.

That reminds me I need to post up a thread on the main GRM board to see if we can get more people. I have to see if I have some good shots of the MMC cars from lat night. I would like to play up the battle of the big three.

failboat wrote: Punting Dean. Sorry Bud. If I come in a little hot with this car, it WILL turn in great, but then gets into a slide, Not a problem if no one is there but you happened to be outside of me in this case. This is why we test and practice right?

No problem. Exactly what practice is for. In fact we all tend to force the issue more in practice. I know I pulled a move on mudd in the last chicane thing that was not "legal" per say but it worked. LOL

Yes i forgot to save a couple replays last night, some of which were the modern muscle car races.

You know what the MMC series reminds me of of the American Iron series. I just realized that they are very similar.

how do you guys go about picking tracks? I know we're going to look into a few of the user created tracks wednesday but with thanksgiving I would guess a lower than usual turnout. Plus theres the rest of the race schedule to fill with the in game tracks.

I had a real chance in the F40 race. I tossed it away in the hairpin in the second lap then massively overdrove the car and couldn't catch up. Huge fun though.

I couldn't get the gto to turn at all. I was three or four seconds off of sauces times in it. The 2000 Camaro was bad fast though.

In reply to Nick (Not-Stig) Comstock:

This series has a very interesting dynamic since some cars are very loose and some really want to push. The cars that understeer need earlier braking and turning, but being more stable can be on the gas earlier out of the corner. The loose cars can brake later and get rotated easily, but have a harder time putting the power down at exit. Both have the potential to be fast but require different driving.

I just noted that as a bonus the cars for the MMC series area all relatively cheep. I was worried that they were going to be more expensive. And if you take in to account the mods they are less than 100K I think.

I also have a replacement for the SVT Cobra R due to it being run in the modern Muscle Car series. My revised stock list:

1. Pagani Zonda C12 '00

2. TVR Tamora '02

3. Shelby Series One Super Charged '03

4. Hommell Berlinette R/S Coupe '99

5. TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00

6. Subaru Impreza WRX STI spec C '09

7. Audi TTS Coupe '09

8. TVR Griffith 500 '94

9. MG TF160 '03

The MG is last because it's so slow! Maybe I should have left it off the list, but it could be the European Miata where a full tuner series could make it shine. The Tamora is what I thought the Tuscan Speed 6 was going to be. I think that it also challenges the Zonda C12 as the best car of the group. The Berlinette R/S Coupe is slow relative to the rest of the group, but it's clearly a car worth looking at. I may test two of these with SM tires, but I will likely keep it as is.

Dean, The muscle car series should be no brake bias (IMO) so it's as non-tuning as we can get them. I'm not a fan of these cars, I'm more of a sports car driver. I also think that the Lotus 111R Race car should be a lock since it's clearly the superior car out of anything we tested, or even suggested (the mm-R cup car is really good, though). I also tested one of the FD RX-7s, and I was a little faster in it than my NSX, so I likely would have battled for 3rd or 4th without any bad mistakes, if anyone was wondering.

In reply to Mr_Clutch42:

Usually we like a challenge. If e have a good car we'll run it on junky tires. I personally want a series of f40's on cs tires.

I like the modern muscle cars.

Mr_Clutch42 wrote: I also have a replacement for the SVT Cobra R due to it being run in the modern Muscle Car series. My revised stock list:

1. Pagani Zonda C12 '00

2. TVR Tamora '02

3. Shelby Series One Super Charged '03

4. Hommell Berlinette R/S Coupe '99

5. TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00

6. Subaru Impreza WRX STI spec C '09

7. Audi TTS Coupe '09

8. TVR Griffith 500 '94

9. MG TF160 '03

Mr_Clutch42 wrote: The MG is last because it's so slow! Maybe I should have left it off the list, but it could be the European Miata where a full tuner series could make it shine. The Tamora is what I thought the Tuscan Speed 6 was going to be. I think that it also challenges the Zonda C12 as the best car of the group. The Berlinette R/S Coupe is slow relative to the rest of the group, but it's clearly a car worth looking at. I may test two of these with SM tires, but I will likely keep it as is. Dean, The muscle car series should be no brake bias (IMO) so it's as non-tuning as we can get them. I'm not a fan of these cars, I'm more of a sports car driver. I also think that the Lotus 111R Race car should be a lock since it's clearly the superior car out of anything we tested, or even suggested (the mm-R cup car is really good, though). I also tested one of the FD RX-7s, and I was a little faster in it than my NSX, so I likely would have battled for 3rd or 4th without any bad mistakes, if anyone was wondering.

So eliminate #1 and #9. Classic case of tossing out the high and the low to get the true average. Or in this case the real field.

Mr_Clutch42 wrote: Dean, The muscle car series should be no brake bias (IMO) so it's as non-tuning as we can get them. I'm not a fan of these cars, I'm more of a sports car driver. I also think that the Lotus 111R Race car should be a lock since it's clearly the superior car out of anything we tested, or even suggested (the mm-R cup car is really good, though). I also tested one of the FD RX-7s, and I was a little faster in it than my NSX, so I likely would have battled for 3rd or 4th without any bad mistakes, if anyone was wondering.

I agree with you re the no bias. The point of the MMC series is diversity as well as close racing. Everyone knows my distane for FF cars and that I think we should only run AWD series

The Lotus is a great car. It comes down to what the masses want.

failboat wrote: how do you guys go about picking tracks? I know we're going to look into a few of the user created tracks wednesday but with thanksgiving I would guess a lower than usual turnout. Plus theres the rest of the race schedule to fill with the in game tracks.

There is no standard way. We have gone with themes sometimes (real track, fake tracks, big tracks etc). In general we default to going with tracks we have had good races at, but it is nice to mix it up sometimes. I would like to try and use some recently neglected tracks this time (e.g. Spa, Panorama) and would not mind throwing in a few good custom tracks (not too many though).

In short, if you want to take a shot at a list, go for it, that would be very helpful. If we hate it, we will let you know

There are obviously some tracks that just will not work (e.g. London), especially for the different car series, so try to avoid those.

They don't let me pick tracks anymore

In reply to dean1484: This is my list for testing a one make stock series, I'm not testing a Grab bag type series since you are putting the modern muscle car and a Grand Touring car series. I didn't even bother with comparing times, just how good they are in order. Of the list, the Hommell is the most entertaining one of the group.

In reply to Mr_Clutch42:

The Hommell is fantastic. It's like a mini F40.

Ok, I have some track suggestions for the upcoming season.

Open to comments, criticisms, and of course these are only my suggestions and others should weigh in too.

Im suggesting 8 in game courses and a few alternates, leaving 2 spots open for some user made tracks. Hopefully we can spend some time wednesday trying out several to narrow down to 2.

I spent some time today playing around with time of day and time progression, came up with some interesting suggestions utilizing these features for half the tracks. I think it provides a great on track feel and could make for interesting replays/photos. I suggest you test these yourself and provide feedback, Could always shift times around or speed up the progression. For the sunrise tracks I tried to have it get light after a lap or into the 2nd lap, For Apricot Hill Sunset I got the sun to set on lap 3.

Track Suggestions
Midfield Raceway
Cape Ring Periphery
Twin Ring Motegi East Course
Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca

Mount Panorama (Sunrise) - 5:15 AM Start, Time Progression 8. Headlights out end of 1st lap, Sun Rising laps 2-3.

Streets of Willow (Sunrise) - 6:15 AM Start, Time Progression 8. After 3 or 4 laps its pretty much bright out.

Circuit De Spa (Sunrise) - 7:15 AM Start, Time Progression 10. Dark for the 1st lap or so. Track is not particularly well lit, but Headlights seem to work well on this course though. All the walls and striping and rumble strips light up well with the headlights. If there are clouds in the sky, the sunrise at this track looks amazing.

Apricot Hill (Sunset) - 17:30 Start, Time Progression 15, First 2 laps its light out, Sun setting lap 3 and headlights come on, Laps 4+ its dark. This track is well lit at night.

Alternate tracks
Autumn Ring
Special Stage Route 5
Tsukuba Circuit

User Created Tracks for Testing

Lakeside Motor Circuit @ Andalusia by GTP_Venari (2.39mi)
Silver Creek Raceway @ Death Valley by MCR-Streets (2.82mi)

Hay I know lets run the 5.TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00 on an oval with tire and fuel set on high. Ya that I a good idea