FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

completely get all of that, not a witch!

In reply to solfly :

Warlock then?

In reply to CJ (He's Just an FS) :

mke said:

solfly said:

Do you think this will all be worth it in the end? The cost, effort and down time vs a more conventional swap/build? I know that's not a very grassroots/car guy question but wondering your take?

BLASPHEMY!!!!  Burn the WITCH!!!!  

Good question.  Today I would say no as nothing about this has gone to plan.  It was already 600sih hp, and in hind sight refreshing the V8, cams, port work and a larger blower (or a switch to big turbos) would have been cheeper and much faster.  But I suspect if you ask again in a few week when its (hopefully) driving I'll answer differently. 

There was a feel to the way the car drove or maybe more felt stock that was lost with the blower engines and the point of all this was to try to get the magic back.  I know that's not a racer or engineer thing to say but it really changed with the blower(s).  The added acceleration was wonderful....that last engine the tire would just start spinning in 1st gear when the boost gauge hit about 10 psi no matter how gently you approached 10psi.....best acceleration was starting in 2nd gear.  Roll along and 2000 rpm, push the throttle nd it would just kind of shake and GO like a big block corvette.....which is very much not like a Ferrari that explodes with a smoothness that is hard to describe. And the sound....the blower was louder than the loud exhaust, almost turbine like. 

This engine will if nothing else sound like a Ferrari but I suspect it will also feel like a Ferrari.  I intentionally biased the power to the higher rpm to get the low end torque down....to encourage  rpm.  The last blower engine liked to be driven around town at 1500-3000.....this engine should run there but shouldn't be all that happy and I changed the gearing to try to force more rpm as more torque is now needed with 1st gar nearly where 2nd was.  Also the switch to 12 from 8 will make 2000 feel the way 3000 used too....same power pulse feel and sound.

So ask again once its driving, I really hope to be able to say "YES!! it was worth it!"......but until it runs, not so much worth it.

 

 

Great answer.  Cars like this one are not necessarily about the numbers.  I've had the privilege of driving both 458 and a 488s on the track and while there's no question that by every objective metric the 488 is the better car I much prefer the 458.  Most of that is due to the more visceral sound and feel of the fabulous normally aspirated, flat plane crank, v8 in the 458s.

mke said:

I intentionally biased the power to the higher rpm to get the low end torque down....to encourage  rpm.  The last blower engine liked to be driven around town at 1500-3000.....this engine should run there but shouldn't be all that happy and I changed the gearing to try to force more rpm as more torque is now needed with 1st gar nearly where 2nd was.  Also the switch to 12 from 8 will make 2000 feel the way 3000 used too....same power pulse feel and sound.

The 12 at 2,000 will sound better than the 8 at 3,000. It will have more overlap of the intake and exhaust pulses, which gives an I6 more of a WHOOOSH than the bark of an I4, and likewise a screaming V12 vs a roaring V8.

As for the intentional top-end bias for making power in order to have a more fun/engaging/rewarding engine - I'm with you 100% on this. I'm maybe a bit biased as a fan of rotaries and motorcycles, but I think that a top end bias is just way better for many reasons.

Not long ago I watched a very high quality rebuild of a Ford FE big-block, and was really loving it - every piece was like jewelry, and that is a very stout block and bottom end. It was for a 427 Cobra replica, and had a custom EFI setup. It was meant for street use and they said a few times that the owner was not that concerned with outright power. It all made sense. Then they put it on the dyno and the hp curve was dead flat. It made the same ~450 hp from 2,000 to 6,000 RPM. And when I imagined driving it, I just couldn't see the point. Like, zero incentive/reward for winding it out, no need to upshift or downshift for the conditions, no planning ahead and feeling the effects. Just stab the throttle any time at any RPM at any gear and get the same result. It made me feel just so flat. I almost regretted watching the build video.

Here's cylinder 8, the smashed one, in the middle....good as new...you never know there was a valve shoved up the exhaust port and another smashed into the chamber.

Ok, after several sleepless nights changed to

crank 2.1

rods 2.4

pistons 3.5

Final answer.  The change is based on the Ti rods get tighter with heat while the alum mains will get looser...probable about 1-1.1 loser.  This change is closer to factory spec (though rods are still on the tight side and mains loose) but should get everything closer to 1.2-1.3/inch when hot which is is loose.

The pistons...well I just screwed up, the spec sheet says 3.5, not 3-4 or anything else but 3.5.  So I'm guessing they mean 3.5.

To figure-out where the exhaust seat depth was originally I cut a seat, put a valve in with its shim and bucket, dropped the cam in and checked the clearance to see where I was relative to where it used to be.    The shim was on the thin side so I added .010 to get give me more room to work shim wise....which made me realize why I picked the depth I did on both intake and exhaust, the way larger valves need to be at least that deep for the seat to actually cut on the outer edge so it all worked out fine. 

As I was grabbed the cam it was in my mind that like the valve guides I reamed the journals and called it good so OBVIOUSLY I plan to MEASURE the journal sizes before assembly this time so that is what was on my mind as I dropped the cam in....that's odd.....it pops it with what looks and feels like flex in the cam ...hmmm....I know I milled the journals straight after I finished welding last time.....or was that before I realized the exhaust ports needed work?  either way, tonight I'll blend the new seats on the other head then have a good long look at the cam journal situation.

solfly said:

completely get all of that, not a witch!

Just the kind of thing a witch would say...

New York Nick said:

solfly said:

completely get all of that, not a witch!

Just the kind of thing a witch would say...

also just the kind of thing a witch would say, to deflect attention from their own wart-covered nose and cruel shoes...

yeah....

mke said:

Here's cylinder 8, the smashed one, in the middle....good as new...you never know there was a valve shoved up the exhaust port and another smashed into the chamber.

Well, this thread may or may not have a witch, but it definitely has a wizard! Nice work. And good luck sorting out the cams & journals.

Can I ask what's up with that pinhold on the intake side of the spark plug hole?

Syscrush said:

Can I ask what's up with that pinhold on the intake side of the spark plug hole?

Welding dirty old aluminum is a bugger and pinholes like that are almost unavoidable....its a bubble really so solid behind and not really doing any harm other than cosmetically......so move along, nothing to see here kind of thing as far as I can tell.

The exhaust cam fit issue wasn't as bad as I feared.  The intakes were fine and I went looking back at the pics I'm pretty sure I basically finished the heads then realized I couldn't get the exhaust flow I was after without a little welding in the ports....and that seems to have pitched the cam.  A few minutes per head with a ground bar (doesn't everyone have a ground just under cam journal size bar kicking round just waiting for a purpose in life? )and lapping compound and the exhaust cams are like budda.  On to fitting the valves I guess.

That is one long azz camshaft! 

In reply to Kendall_Jones :

No kidding! Now imagine having to make it and rill it end to end!

I didn't notice when I posted the pic of the cam on the mill but that pile of chips about 3ft round and 1 foot tall in the bottom right .....that's all ferrari engine.  I remember joking about bottling and selling it to fund project or giving a bucket of ferrari engine to people who helped.  I'd forgotten all about the days when I measured progress by the chip piles created that day 

decided to start the morning by giving the intake cam journals some lapping love.  The cams dropped and and spun free but the best I could measure they were on the tight side of good and there will be none of that this go around...this engine should really want 20w50 oil is the goal...not just in some place but that should be the right oil everywhere so everything gets the oils flow its supposed to get.  So thats done.  

Over on the ferrari forum Newman reminded me that ideally the lapping is done with the heads torqued on the block.  Wade told me that too...what's that they say, when you're at a party and someone tells you you're drunk you may or may not be drunk but when a 2nd and 3rd tell you then you know you're drunk......I'll hold head assembly until the block comes home so I can give the journals another quick lap and be certain and looking back at old pics that is the way I reamed them the first time so .....yeah do it right.

There is a bit of fall yard work to do, close the pool and such but I should be able to cut the 4 new valves to length and give all 48 a quick lap check to be sure they are seating right, assuming they are.  Then mostly clean up the heads so just final lap and final clean left.

The shop reorg I did the other week has really turned out to be more helpful than I expected.  Here is the view I now have from my work bench....very motivating.

Moved on to lapping because I really wanted to see how things looked...5-10 seconds with the smallest amount of compound I could put on and I think it looks really good with a clean line on the valve and seat.  

I did another 21 and they all look the same which bought me to need to finish the 4 new valves as they come as blanks before I could finish the exhausts and move to intakes.  I mark them about .050" long with tape then chop saw leaving all the tape, then fill the length in the mill with a carbide cutter.  They are all to length but keeper grooves will need to wait until tomorrow.

56F in the shop this morning 

Trying to finish up the valves before I get put on yard work.  I'm also going to need to recheck all the valve spring installed heights....there is very little margin with them from enough preload to get the seat pressure needed to coil bind at full lift with monster cams....best recheck it

Finished cutting the keeper grooves, then I polished up the milled ends a bit...I use a block to hold it square.  Then lapped the last to exhausts and all the intakes.

You must be getting impatient, polishing with 60 grit.

Nader said:

You must be getting impatient, polishing with 60 grit.

I am, but its only 100 grit 

Then I moved to 220.....not really polish, just to smooth out the milling cutter finish hoping that makes the length more stable over time so its a while before I need to re-do the shims.  Its shim under bucket so cams need to come out to  change shims which it turns out is not a fun job......

Pressure washed the heck out of the heads this afternoon so most all the dirt is off.  I'll scotchbrite the outside a little to pretty them up then I guess set the valve springs and shims....then bag everything until the final torqued in place cam journal lap.

I'll add this...this is the part of the job that is really REALLY boring.  I like to saw and weld stuff, chips everywhere so you see progress.  Here every job needs to be done 48 times....I tell myself its only 24 because the others are different but....yeah, its 48 times and visually you really can't tell done from not done.....and if 1 is wrong the engine explodes  it turns out so its not only the most boring but also the most important work. 

Another 4-6 weeks and hopefully its an engine again and I can return to thinking about sticky tires,  ideal sway bars/spring rates and a general suspension refresh.  I saw the "wear your helmet to work" stuff and realized mine is no doubt expired at this point.  Thinking about these things helps make the whole doing everything 48 times more tolerable.....I'm so over this engine project at this point. god help me if anything goes wrong this time as I'm not sure I have another go at it in me.

mke said:

I'll add this...this is the part of the job that is really REALLY boring. 

...

Another 4-6 weeks and hopefully its an engine again and I can return to thinking about sticky tires,  ideal sway bars/spring rates and a general suspension refresh.  I saw the "wear your helmet to work" stuff and realized mine is no doubt expired at this point.  Thinking about these things helps make the whole doing everything 48 times more tolerable.....I'm so over this engine project at this point. god help me if anything goes wrong this time as I'm not sure I have another go at it in me.

Sir, my hat is off to you and the amazing work and energy you are bringing to get this completed.