modified the fixture a bit tonight after measuring and seeing the hand tight was not always ok. So plate off, 6 small screws in, 2 inset a bit to hit the flats to prevent rotation. so that is good.
Today I learned that even with a nice hone too much pressure cuts great and makes wonderful ovals 
Asking what may be a stupid question here but does the oval-ity of the bore fall in line with or 90 degrees out of position from the larger outer 2 mounting ears? I am just wondering if the external fastners could be causing an issue or if the extra material around the ears could be more rigid than the outer portion of the sleeve.
Sean
In reply to smokeysevin :
Before, when I was using the side bolts the out of round I saw was aligned with the bolts on top and at 90 deg to them on the bottom....001 up top, .002" bottom. hand tight worst case was 1/2 that.
Now with the screws its at 45 to the ears.....which this morning has me thinking I need to remove the cylinder and recheck it as that is suspiciously close to the 2 inset screw I figured would help with rotation. I also need to replace the kerosene/oil mix I'm using because the smell on me and my cloths was been deemed unacceptable and may lean to my house access being revoked...Lana is going to review the other 2 options (mineral spirits and oil, WD-40) and and decide which one I like best
mke said:
Today I learned that even with a nice hone too much pressure cuts great and makes wonderful ovals
It's extremely difficult to hand hone cylinders (as you're finding). Part of that is due to the difficulty of getting a consistent linear motion and some of that is because the Sunnen powerstroke hone doesn't get impatient and try to speed things up.
What I've done in the past when my machine shop couldn't fixture stuff is make the fixtures for them. Sometimes I've gotten a price break and they've kept the fixture and sometimes I take the fixture back when the job is done.
Getting everything just right is a tad challenging.
I switched the oil over to wd-40 with a little motor oil added but I also ordered a gal of real honing oil and another set of 70 and 150 stones. I'm certain the 70s are glazed and that is why I'd been honing the same cylinder for hours. I switched to the 150grit set and 20-30 minutes later is was ready for 280. I left it sit over night and will measure again today to be sure but its probably done. The shoes on the 150 set just seem kind of loose compared to the the way 70 and 280 sets fit the bore and acted so I ordered a new set of150s too just to be sure and upgraded to 2nd day shipping to keep things moving but I think al it looking well at the moment.
Also, I moved the 2 insert screw out away from the flat area....that was in fact causing the out of round I saw the day before. The stones were cutting stupid slow, I used more pressure, that slightly rotated the cylinder into the screw which acted like a little wedge. Removed the screw, cylinder was mostly round again because the stones were cutting so slow not much harm done.
Wow that is a lot of hand honing.... Reminded me of the giant awesome hone that CCE on youtube has... Maybe a little large, but you need it :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjPEC0aHoXA&ab_channel=CuttingEdgeEngineeringAustralia
Honing stuff still isn't here so I tackled the tach face. I'm pretty happy with this.
So your at the race and all ready at 10 but you need just a little more, what you do? In a normal Ferrari there's nothing you can do, 10 is all there is but this was specially made, it goes to 11.... 1 faster.
In reply to preach (fs) :
That movie is from 1984, just like the car and its "new" TR heads.....what could be more fitting? I figuratively "turned it up to 11" with the engine swap/mods, now and literally as well 
mke said:I'm pretty happy with this.
As you should be!
mke said:I figuratively "turned it up to 11" with the engine swap/mods, now and literally as well
But ... didn't you really turn it up to 12?
NorseDave said:mke said:I figuratively "turned it up to 11" with the engine swap/mods, now and literally as well
But ... didn't you really turn it up to 12?
Sadly only 11 were running I think 
So I have been honing every night all week and all day today and here's where it sits....Everything worth trying to hone is honed and pretty round and straight. The old hone just loved to do a wobble at the top and cleaning it up took out a lot of material. I kind of worked from worst to best so by about 1/2 way though I knew the goal was get it in the 1-2 thou over pile regardless or where it cleaned up.
So once they are all done, lets say at about 2 thou over I can send the pistons for coating and they will fit perfect. The rings are another matter as they are intended for a bore that is to size. That whole nitrous thought means they need more gap and in a +2 bore they will be good for a 200-300hp shot I guess. Normally that means cold cranking compression and vacuum would be pretty low but luckily I decided to use gapless rings (which is a misnomer, in reality the 2nd compression ring is actually 2 rings with the gaps 180 degrees apart yielding leak little leakage) so I think this is going to work out just fine for both performance and streetability whether I actually ever add nitrous or not.
Tomorrow when I'm fresh I'll remeasure and sped the day futzing to get them matched as well as I can and a nice finish on all of them and hopefully dump the oil in the recycle bucket and pack the home up to go home to Wade....couldn't have done the job without it but after tomorrow I'm hoping to never see it again :lol:
About lunchtime today I decided the oil in the tank was more sludge than oil so I switched from my WD-40+motor oil mix to the goodson honing oil.....and was surprised how slow it cut so I poured about 1 quart of mineral spirits in which fixed it right up.
Have been following this since your first post . Your perseverance and determination are remarkable .Looks like you are in the homestretch and can't wait for the first startup video .There is enough material in these posts for a first class coffee table book .
The odyssey has ended, the cylinders are honed, the mess cleaned up. These are not the best cylinders ever produced but they are no doubt the best I've ever produced. Before I owner a bore gauge every cylinder I ever touched was within a 1/2 thou of target and perfectly round and straight......now I know better. I kind of wish hadn't fitted a 1/10th indicator to the gauge so I know exactly how not perfect they are. 10 are within 4 tenths which is the modern OEM spec so not it looks awful on my huge gauge, its right. The other 2 are 7 and 10 tenths and I just could get them better without making a new fixture....but even those 2 are better than anything I've done in the past so I'm going to call it pretty good and be satisfied if not completely happy....I really wish I had not change the indicator on the gauge.
Tomorrow I will clean up the hone and get it packed up for shipping home with a big THANK YOU to Wade. Also I need to pack up the pistons so get them shipped for coating. My plan will be to get the main bearings clearances set properly while I'm waiting on the pistons....then put it together I guess 
Do you know what I did on the car last night? Nothing! I'm pushing pretty hard to having it running for spring and Lana has quite a growing list for me but decided I deserved a break last night.
Tonight I'll pack up the pistons. The coating place says 10 day turnaround, plus shipping times I guess 3-4 weeks so I need to get to it.
Fitting the crank properly is next. Because the block readings were coming out a bit wonky I had the machine shop leave the crank on the high spec for -.010 undersize and will line lap the main journals. Shipping a lapping bar without damaging it means a create and still worrying so I asked Wade to measure his bar and it's 6 tenths undersize so I ordered a 24" long x 2.625 Dia (+0/-.0005) ground steel bar from mcmaster....but not in keeping with mcmaster reputation for EVERYTHING is in stock and delivered the next day, they said 2 week delivery. 24" long is $193, 36" which would probably be better is $280....but 24" fits in my lathe so I can sand it down to the desired OD relatively easily and will just make it end to end in the block if I weld on an extension so I can turn it. Hopefully this will be all done by the time the pistons arrive home.
I can't wait to see how your honing bar setup turns out!
Something to consider is that you could drill and tap a hole on the end of the bar and then use a length of threaded rod to drive it. Then you'd have the option of easily breaking it down for storage or shipping or ease of popping it back in the lathe for any reason.
Do not weld on your honing bar. Mill a slot in the end so you can drive it with a 1/2" breaker bar.
The lapping bar is literally just a bar that is a few tenths under the journal size. I may add some grooves to help hold lapping compound...very not high tech but called out in the ferrari workshop manual so it seems a normal part of hand built engine world. The manual says turn it a couple times then flip the engine and turn a couple more times so the weight of the bar is accounted for. When its done right the crank should turn like butter.
I'm thinking it will at least make noise again roundabout late April...actually driving should come next....should :)
Left to do is
1) fit the main bearings
2) at least confirm cam journal size (remember I did some lapping already)...but I'll assume there is more to do
3) clay the pistons. I STILL have a borrowed piston vise waiting on this set to be sure I cut enough clearance
4) There was something very not right with the timing chain, the engine only turned forward and I couldn't figure out why....I need to figure that out this time because the only thing I can think is there was a loop in the chain at the bottom sprocket I couldn't see. I have it apart and together 5 or 6 times, always the same result. I'm told ferrari added a guide to the bottom on the 412 so that is where I'm headed I think
5) Assemble and install I guess.....
Cleaning up a little this morning before moving on to installing the liners and heads and spotted a screw in the pile. This particular screw is what I used to hold the windscreen to the fairing in my H-D roadrace bike which last lasted in ...1996? and 4 workshops ago. Not really sure how it ended up on the floor of a shop built 20 years later but I laughed at both the fact that it did and maybe more so that I knew exactly what it was but I can't usually remember the name of the guy I met yesterday much less 20 years ago
The cylinders are back in the block and heads are back on other than torquing....it takes forever to get the frikin nuts on.
Catching back up with this. Seems like you installed the heads before the piston & rod assemblies? Is that accurate / normal?
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:Catching back up with this. Seems like you installed the heads before the piston & rod assemblies? Is that accurate / normal?
Not normal at all and they will need to come back off then, go back on at least 2 more times.....with it taking me about 2 hours to get all the nuts on each time and about an hour to get them back off. Right now the goal is to fit the crank bearings and to do that the heads need to be torqued in place because the head studs are long and basically pull from the main bearing webs, which helps keep the cylinders round but distorts the bearings....so I need ot make the bearings round when the heads are on.
While the heads are on but pistons out so no way a valve can hit a piston, I'll probably also have a look at the timing chain not letting the engine turn backwards issue. Once all that is done it comes back apart so the pistons can go in with a little clay in the valve pockets. Then heads and timing chain back on and turn the engine over to let the valves hit the clay and mold it into the remaining space. then timing cover and heads off to measure the clay so I know exactly how much piston to valve and piston to head clearance there is. If all is well it all goes together for good, if not I recut the pistons and reclay.
Its a slow process when its being done right.....last time I cut a lot of corners rushing and paid for it. 
, so I'm spending a bit more time this go round. Once I know everything fits right, any future work can go a lot faster, but the first build literally everything is supposed to get checked.
These are the tools I made to toque the heads. The longer one is from the QV engine days and mostly fit the TR heads too and the short one is for the 2 nuts on the chain end of the front/left head that I had to shorten 3/4" to fit the timing cover which left JUST enough room to toque the nuts using wretch shaped exactly right, which took me a couple tries to make work.
The engine stand works great for moving the engine around but not so great for torquing so I strap it to the big heavy welding table.
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