Pete. (l33t FS) said:The RX-7 has a fuel only MS2/Extra mainly because you cannot get computer controlled ignition to start as quickly as a distributor can. I like being able to quickly bump start from a stall.
I assume that's a rotary issue? My 4AGE was starting so quickly on a MS3X that I intentionally added a delay to let oil pressure build a bit:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/i-need-to-make-my-engine-start-slower-ms3-questions/137993/page1/
Olemiss540 said:Question #1: Do you like to ram yourself into a teabag?
Question #2: Does learning a new computer language as a hobby for the next 10 years sound fun?
Question #3: Do you want to DIY EVERYRHING from today forward?
FWIW, I have installed and tuned MS units, BigStuff3, FAST XFI, and one Hydra Nemesis. The Hydra sucked, the other three all worked about the same once you got past learning the actual tuning software. The BigStuff3 is extremely basic, the FAST is very powerful but limited in what you can install it on, MS is almost infinitely configurable but this also means you have to be more of a technician if you are doing something a bit off the beaten path.
But they all essentially work the same as far as the nuts and bolts of tuning goes. The FAST onboard wideband kicks all the ass and makes tuning super super simple in comparison to working with Tuner Studio... but the actual software layout is migraine inducing.
I am not a software hack in the least. My hardware hacking extends no further than sticking sensors onto things and splicing resistors into wires. (like putting a 1k ohm resistor between a tach's power input and signal input, so a computer has voltage it can pull to ground so the tach can work) I have had no issue with making any standalone work.
Except for the Hydra. I hated that. Oh and a really old Accel computer that felt like building something with Duplo blocks. IIRC its fuel map was hard-coded injector pulsewidths.
More trivia. I installed an MS3Pro into a four cylinder Fiero. I downloaded TunerCat and a tune file from a GM computer for a 2.5. GM computers use the same kind of tables as MS (and FAST, and, and...) I copied the fuel and spark tables into the MS, interpolated the parts that did not exist in the GM code, made an educated guess on injector characteristics, and it started and ran right away. After using the running engine to nail down the injector characteristics, it took very little tweaking to get an engine that ran really, really well.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Dunno. If I stall the engine backing up the driveway, I like to be able to pop the clutch in and out to be able to restart it without using the starter. It will refire within half a revolution, so all it requires is a little nudge at walking speed.
I keep the idle as low as possible, which means it is too low with a cold engine and needs minding 
Pete. (l33t FS) said:I went close to a decade on a fuel only BG code v1.01 box, daily driven, so it is certainly doable.
The RX-7 has a fuel only MS2/Extra mainly because you cannot get computer controlled ignition to start as quickly as a distributor can. I like being able to quickly bump start from a stall.
The Mini has a MS3Pro Evo on the shelf. Funny story. Alldata's wiring diagram for a WRX instrument cluster suggests that everything goes to the ECM and then the ECM gives that info to the cluster by CAN. Which is only annoying because we want a functional fuel gauge, everything else is simple gauges. I was looking into the WRX MSPNP and noticed that it didn't do any CAN outputs? Looked at the OEM wiring diagram, and found the cluster does not use CAN, it is all discrete inputs including the fuel gauge. Well that makes it easy.
You'd love the ND fuel gauge. It only measures tank level when you are filling (change in level of more than X liters in Y seconds). Then it works on dead reckoning based on a "tick" every time X amount of fuel is injected - which is how instantaneous fuel economy gauges work, but Mazda decided to use it for the fuel gauge. Ran the LS ND dry a couple of times before we figured THAT one out, and how to turn a GM instantaneous fuel economy signal into a Mazda one. Big win that day...
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I've heard that story and still shudder when I consider it. What problem did doing it that way solve? Near as I can figure, it merely eliminates the way fuel gauges can swing wildly one way or the other. Having lived with first gen RX-7s for over two decades, I am used to having a car with a gauge that reads lower if you are going uphill or cornering left, and higher if you are going downhill or cornering right. (Yes the sender and pickup are at the FRONT of the tank...) I can see the gauge changing by up to half a tank depending on which way the on-ramp goes being acceptable in 1978-1985 but unacceptable in 2016. Does the ND have a highly offset sending unit where it would be sensitive like that?
For the WRX cluster case, I am using the Subaru fuel tank, which is a saddle tank with a sending unit on each side. The way everyone else I am familiar with does it, the two sending units go to whatever computer, and the computer averages the two by whatever algorithm makes sense for the tank geometry.
The way Subaru does it, the two sending units are wired in series, or parallel, I forget which, and the two together turn into a normal 0-90 ohm signal. Stone simple.
Keith Tanner said:You'll find that most sensors are analog. A temp sensor is just a resistor that changes value with temp. TPS is usually something similar. Engine speed is likely pulses in the Jag, which is basically digital. The MS might turn these into digital information so it can work with them but they're analog coming in.
What you're really doing is looking for sensors that are similar to the defaults, but you should be able to adjust the system to read just about anything. You just need to know what the signal looks like.
I'd approach this by starting with "what do I need to control (fuel only, apparently) and what information do I need to do it?" Probably engine temp, air measurement and a precise engine speed with a TDC indication. You can add more but that's about the minimum. Engine temp is cake, if you have a functional electric gauge you have that. Airflow is just plumbing. Engine speed and TDC means a cam sensor or a crank and a cam sensor. Heck, I think you can get away without TDC if you do batch injection.
I'm fine with batch injection. It's the way almost all V12's run. I think I can even figure out how to hook up using existing sensors.
Now darn it , I'm starting to find cheap 6.0 liters which don't have the whirligig in the center ( distributor) and come standard with an extra 50 horsepower.
So now, do I continue to use my existing ( but new) Megasquirt or move to the megasquirt 3 pro, Gold Box? Something else?
Since I want to fuel it with E85 I believe the stock Lucas 30 psi fuel pump is not up to providing enough fuel for the larger injectors I'll need to use. Especially since I intend to turbo it.
I'm trying very hard not to chase the bigger & faster and more expensive latest ECU. But I'm prepared to do it right rather than have to hack it up.
Please critic my plans.
I'll buy the required wiring & plans from DIY and hook it up, get it running on gas and my 5.3 with the whirligig. Using the existing Lucas fuel pump. ( it's external) And my basic Megasquirt.
vroom vroom. Making noise I'll play with the lap top until I'm convinced I can adjust things via the keyboard.
Then remove the 5.3 install the 6.0 without a Whirligig. And try to make that make noises.
Then slap the bigger injectors on, and add the bigger fuel pump going to E85 and once again make vroom vroom noises.
Now comes the pair of Turbo's ? Assuming vroom vroom noises should I now go on the chassis dyno for real and try to make power?
Or someplace along that process move to the Alternative ECU?
Oh and my wife assured me that my old ( but barely ever used ) laptop is dead. Cannot be saved. So buying a used lap top what are the minimum requirements?
alfadriver said:AndyHess said:For OEM reflashers, there will never be a compiled list of business that do that. Ever. Unless every one of them wants a knock on the door from the FBI.
Experts for that have to really be careful, especially since there is a recent crack down on OEM re-calibrate software.
I am aware of crackdowns on diesel tuners who remove DEF systems, EGR hardware, etc.
I am not aware of any crackdown on ECU flashing that doesn't require, or enable, renoval of pollution control hardware, except in California by state agencies.
Also, the EPA enforces those regs, not the FBI.
As far as a compiled list, Google found several after about 30-seconds of searching.
None of it applies to track-only cars.
In reply to DaleCarter :
There is no legal definition of a track only car. As far as the EPA is concerned, it is still a street car.
And tuner software companies have taken a lot of functionality out of their software recently.
In reply to DaleCarter :
Given that more than one gas engine retuner company has been in the news for re-flashing, I would not exactly go on that. It's been against the law to tamper since 1972, and thanks to the diesel folk, the overlooking of motorsports people has pretty much evaporated in the last few years. We've had many discussions about that here. I know the enforcement on HondaData and one of the other tuners who specializes in GM products has been a hot discussion here.
The EPA will be sending the letters, and making fines, but if there's any other enforcement that is required- like doing searches, seizures, and whatnot- that is done by the FBI for the EPA. It's been done before.
For cars that are not registered to run on roads, sure, there's no real rules for them. But for a car that is registered, well... defining what a track car is vs. a road car is also a pretty hot discussion.
Since it's been a while, and it hasn't been posted yet:
I'll throw in for Megasquirt as well. I have one on my E30 doing fuel and wasted spark, one in my Suburban doing trans control for the 4L80E, and I coached a buddy thru installing one on his 1994 LT-1 Caramo with Optispark. I have tuned using Tuner Studio, Electromotive, EFI Live, and HPT. The ability for the owner do at least basic functional checks and adjustments should be expected for any ECU setup, and an in-depth understanding of the system and its knobs will get you most of the answers most of the time on almost any SW or ECU platform. It's entirely doable.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Your post made me do some research and learned that you are right and clarified something I didn't understand completely . The EPA does recognize "competition only" vehicles, but it can't be a "motor vehicle" with a manufacturers VIN plate. That means scratch built race cars, like NASCAR or ProMods, are fine, but anything built from a street car is not cool and hasn't been for a long time. It has never been ok to remove a cat converter or any other pollution device for any reason.
This is one of the reasons I love this site... comment threads without the feces throwing found on the rest of the internet :-)
In reply to DaleCarter :
That is where there are people lobbying right now, and have been since 2018 when the hammer started to really come down, to try to get a working definition. Motorsport is a huge business in this country and while scratch built cars for motorsport are great and solve a lot of problems, they are also really expensive compared to, say, picking up a blown up 350Z and converting it into a time attack car.
Of course, no matter what happens, a large number of people will be upset. That is the nature of things, right? But some leeway is better than none and complete leeway is not going to happen.
There was a longish thread here from about that time frame where this was discussed, I'll try to dig it up if someone else does not do it first. As you say, it was really enlightening.
DaleCarter said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Your post made me do some research and learned that you are right and clarified something I didn't understand completely . The EPA does recognize "competition only" vehicles, but it can't be a "motor vehicle" with a manufacturers VIN plate. That means scratch built race cars, like NASCAR or ProMods, are fine, but anything built from a street car is not cool and hasn't been for a long time. It has never been ok to remove a cat converter or any other pollution device for any reason.
This is one of the reasons I love this site... comment threads without the feces throwing found on the rest of the internet :-)
Vintage race cars would then seem a big grey area. Based on what I see. ( and am currently building).
I have the body shell of a mid 70's -late 80's Jaguar. I've not found a VIN number on it yet. You'd think I would since it's on the rotisserie. With a full cage etc. It will never be street legal.
There are cars up to 5 years old completely modified for Vintage racing in SVRA.
Are we legal, Illegal, Grey area?
I sold my Mazdaspeed all due to this. Car was fantastic and tuned perfectly, but could not pass MD emissions, so sold it to someone who was basically using it as a race car for the weekends. He had his 911 for the street. Standalone ECU's are great, but definitely an issue if emissions are required in your state.
In reply to frenchyd :
i am doing a V12 jag currently with RusEfi . and Coil on Plug. and dual ETB's-- get a hold of me an i can help you out . did the new trigger wheel, the ETB's are installed, the Coil on Plug are firing, all that stuff-- its not hard... i can set you up...
Bill...
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