Excellent. Diesel brothers fined $850K plus $1.2m in fees.

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

Why such contempt for rules that help others lives?

In reply to _ :

Contempt for all diesels, huh? Good luck building a house or buying food cheaply.

DirtyBird222 said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

Why such contempt for rules that help others lives?

There's absolutely zero contempt for others lives and your wild accusations are comical. 

but you are accusing others of being bad that they encourage follow the rules, and that we should not be happy that cheaters get penalized.  You also ask Knurled if he's been part of a HOA- which I don't exactly interpret as a positive thing.

Seems to me that you have contempt for the rules....

What is you real point, then? 

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

Sorry, I'm total with Alfa on this one, you are coming across as an ass comparing people who care about public health and upholding Federal law (not association bylaws) to busybodies.  The company purposely broke the rules, profited off it and not only flaunted the fact on TV, but made videos about rolling coal at Prius drivers.  Particulate matter is a big issue for public health.  How can someone argue against the law being upheld is beyond me.

Knurled. said:

In reply to pheller :

To be honest, the coal rollers make me want to do fully-involved modern drivetrain swaps in all of my vintage cars, just to prove that you can be fast while emitting nothing but rainbows and unicorn farts.

 

I can't decide if that is a good thing, a case of defining your goals as being the opposite of someone elses, or just an excuse to play with Ecoboosts.

Ecoboosting some old iron sounds like a good time to me.  

On a related note, if you have an old car modified and tuned properly (for power, not smoke output for example), would you lose much power at all slapping a properly sized modern high flow catalytic converter on it?  Surely that alone would make it worlds cleaner than the car was originally fresh off the showroom floor. Talking here about old american iron, like pre-emissions or even early emissions cars.  When does the trade off occur? Could a modern cat clean up an 80's efi car that has been modified significantly (over the car when stock with 80's tech)?

Rufledt said:

Knurled. said:

In reply to pheller :

To be honest, the coal rollers make me want to do fully-involved modern drivetrain swaps in all of my vintage cars, just to prove that you can be fast while emitting nothing but rainbows and unicorn farts.

 

I can't decide if that is a good thing, a case of defining your goals as being the opposite of someone elses, or just an excuse to play with Ecoboosts.

Ecoboosting some old iron sounds like a good time to me.  

 

Mk1 Escort with a 2.3T ecoboost from a mustang sounds enjoyable.

In reply to Rufledt :

"Modern cats" are actually a lot smaller than the 70s and 80s converters.   One funny side effect of having faster computers, and wideband oxygen sensors, is there is no longer a big swing across stoich.  The computers are fast enough and the sensors accurate enough that they can control to precisely stoich, cylinder by cylinder with only one sensor in some cases.  What this means is the converter no longer has to be an enormous brick to handle being loaded up with hydrocarbons and CO2, and then flush it all out with oxygen when it swings lean, and so on.

If you want to update the emissions controls on an older engine, start with the engine management.

More to your point, in the 90s (might even have been late 80s), Car Craft did an article about some guy who was building high performance Pontiac engines, and part of his schtick was that they were clean and they made power on 87 octane.  Compression was kept low, and he still ran old school carb setups albeit tuned to the nth degree, but they showed one of his engines passing a California roller test for a much newer car.

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

Did you?  This is your first sentance:

"Regardless of what you think about these guys, I don't understand why "auto enthusiast" are so delighted about this. All this does is bring more undue attention from the federales to the aftermarket that we all love and support and puts other companies under a microscope. "

And then later

"I see the pitchfork mafia has arrived in full swing here. "

Finally

"When you are you running for HOA president? "

Hm.  Seems more than just pointing out where the money is going.  I have nothing against you- I just don't understand your point.  Stop putting this back on me, and just explain what you mean, as I just don't' understand your point.  Seems to be quite a bit more than just the money.

Remember, some of us earn a living based on passing these rules, having cheaters is pretty E36 M3ty for me.  Less for me, personally, than people like Kieth.  So, yea, these guys need to be penalized and we should celebrate that penalty.

Knurled. said:

In reply to Rufledt :

"Modern cats" are actually a lot smaller than the 70s and 80s converters.   One funny side effect of having faster computers, and wideband oxygen sensors, is there is no longer a big swing across stoich.  The computers are fast enough and the sensors accurate enough that they can control to precisely stoich, cylinder by cylinder with only one sensor in some cases.  What this means is the converter no longer has to be an enormous brick to handle being loaded up with hydrocarbons and CO2, and then flush it all out with oxygen when it swings lean, and so on.

 

If you want to update the emissions controls on an older engine, start with the engine management.

 

Yea, big yea.  Add an accepted universal catalyst with a WB controlled MS to your classic car, and you will be doing a LOT of good.  I'd add making sure the PCV system is working and sealed, and that the fuel system has some kid of vapor control that the engine gets to burn.  None of that is overly complex, but it will be SO much more effective.

Bonus is that you will enjoy the car better, since you won't be fighting a CO headache and your clothing won't smell like unburt gas.

alfadriver said:

"I see the pitchfork mafia has arrived in full swing here. "

Pitchfork Mafia..  That's the name of my ska band.

Fueled by Caffeine said:

Rufledt said:

Knurled. said:

In reply to pheller :

To be honest, the coal rollers make me want to do fully-involved modern drivetrain swaps in all of my vintage cars, just to prove that you can be fast while emitting nothing but rainbows and unicorn farts.

 

I can't decide if that is a good thing, a case of defining your goals as being the opposite of someone elses, or just an excuse to play with Ecoboosts.

Ecoboosting some old iron sounds like a good time to me.  

Mk1 Escort with a 2.3T ecoboost from a mustang sounds enjoyable.

Heard an EcoBoost Mustang with an exhaust yesterday. Gotta say, nothing about that sound was enjoyable. 

Honestly, I'd take it a step farther and do something like that awesome Tesla-powered '49 Mercury that ICON built. That thing was sweeeeet.

NickD said:

Fueled by Caffeine said:

Rufledt said:

Knurled. said:

In reply to pheller :

To be honest, the coal rollers make me want to do fully-involved modern drivetrain swaps in all of my vintage cars, just to prove that you can be fast while emitting nothing but rainbows and unicorn farts.

 

I can't decide if that is a good thing, a case of defining your goals as being the opposite of someone elses, or just an excuse to play with Ecoboosts.

Ecoboosting some old iron sounds like a good time to me.  

Mk1 Escort with a 2.3T ecoboost from a mustang sounds enjoyable.

Heard an EcoBoost Mustang with an exhaust yesterday. Gotta say, nothing about that sound was enjoyable. 

Honestly, I'd take it a step farther and do something like that awesome Tesla-powered '49 Mercury that ICON built. That thing was sweeeeet.

Yeah.. the sound is horrible..  The thrust is great.  

Glad those dipE36 M3s got their dues. The sad part is that if you actually know what you are doing with a tune you can have a perfectly clean engine.

My VVL swap has zero emissions from the factory and with a simple Magnaflow cat and quality parts it passed the sniffer test with flying colors without EGR

In reply to alfadriver :

I did two MS3Pro installs that retained evap controls.  It was actually pretty simple, as I merely mimicked GM electronic evap from the pre-OBD-II era, which was simply some check valves and a solenoid that ran a 50% duty cycle when not at idle.  If it worked good enough for the General in 1995 then I won't reinvent the wheel.  Extremely easy to implement with one of the generic PWM outputs.

Keith Tanner said:

. So when you discover you can no longer buy a header for your NC or ND Miata that deletes the primary cat and you get all shouty and outraged - you are now with the brodozers

We all know the reality of that situation will end with "order it from China" via ebay or other sites like that which are too small time and ambiguously-owned to make federal enforcement worthwhile. Understand that I'm not making a point about whether that's "right" or "fair" to quality manufacturers like yourself. I'm just making the point that it is what WILL (and already does) happen (and not necessarily talking about Miatas, but about cars in general).   

DirtyBird222 said:

Regardless of what you think about these guys, I don't understand why "auto enthusiast" are so delighted about this. All this does is bring more undue attention from the federales to the aftermarket that we all love and support and puts other companies under a microscope. 

I think you have it backwards. These berkeleytards rolling coal are the ones bringing the undue attention to the aftermarket. 

Here in Fairfax, I know for a fact the police have been cracking down on coal-rollers (not that there are a ton around here, but this is Virginia so there are some), and they've been doing it for several years - I've observed multiple coal-rolling trucks pulled over myself.  Because it's obvious. I've had modded cars (some heavily modded) in this area for 20+ years now and haven't noticed (or heard about) and commensurate increase in "enforcement" of other car-modding-related laws. I'll keep modding my cars smartly and not put a flag up to enforcement. YMMV. 

Whether those particular guys are "annoying" isn't relevant to me (I don't watch them). I couldn't care less what happens in Utah. But I do care when shiny happy people like this are on the road in front of me, rolling coat. They can all pay fines, and I frankly don't even care where the money goes to - I appreciate its punitive nature. 

In reply to irish44j :

Then the legislative gears clank into motion, and the easy fix for that is that private citizens in the US may not purchase goods from outside the US.

Oh yes that would have all sorts of other issues, but no simple solution is without its unintended consequences.

Keith Tanner said:

At the moment, competition only vehicles are not being targeted. That's a different political discussion, and one that has been ongoing for a couple of years. As long as the Challenge cars are no longer street vehicles and will never be street vehicles again, no problem.

Note that Targa Newfoundland cars have had to run cats for at least 12 years. It's in the rule book.

All stage rally cars in the US have to have cats (unless they were made before cats were required). That's in any rally series that uses public roads in the US, period. And yeah, if you get caught with a gutted cat it's a DQ, period. It's not that big a deal, other than having to replace a cheap Summit Racing cat when a rock smashes it lol. 

In reply to irish44j :

For Rally cars, that run hard all of the time, I would put the catalyst a good yard from the headers.  It's very much hot enough there for them to work great, and far enough away to not come close for them to melt down due to the heat at peak power fuel.  Perhaps that far back, you could fit tome someplace safe.

Knurled. said:

In reply to alfadriver :

I did two MS3Pro installs that retained evap controls.  It was actually pretty simple, as I merely mimicked GM electronic evap from the pre-OBD-II era, which was simply some check valves and a solenoid that ran a 50% duty cycle when not at idle.  If it worked good enough for the General in 1995 then I won't reinvent the wheel.  Extremely easy to implement with one of the generic PWM outputs.

That's the kind of set up I'd carry back to any aged car- literally any age- 40's to 90's.  Simple, effective, and pretty compact.  Make the car so much easier to live with.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Does Myin Fleata sell shirts?

Knurled. said:

In reply to irish44j :

Then the legislative gears clank into motion, and the easy fix for that is that private citizens in the US may not purchase goods from outside the US.

 

Oh yes that would have all sorts of other issues, but no simple solution is without its unintended consequences.

Wasn't a commentary on whether it's right or wrong. I work for the Feds, so I know how the "gears" work firsthand. But the reality is the federal government is only concerned with widespread/big-money illegal activities by large organizations where enforcement actually makes a tangible difference. Joe blow getting an ebay header for his crappy old e30 doesn't reach the cost/benefit threshhold for enforcement. 

irish44j said:

Keith Tanner said:

At the moment, competition only vehicles are not being targeted. That's a different political discussion, and one that has been ongoing for a couple of years. As long as the Challenge cars are no longer street vehicles and will never be street vehicles again, no problem.

Note that Targa Newfoundland cars have had to run cats for at least 12 years. It's in the rule book.

All stage rally cars in the US have to have cats (unless they were made before cats were required). That's in any rally series that uses public roads in the US, period. And yeah, if you get caught with a gutted cat it's a DQ, period. It's not that big a deal, other than having to replace a cheap Summit Racing cat when a rock smashes it lol. 

 

Not just stage rally in the US - all Group A and WRC cars have to have converters.

The smart thing to do is to stick them as far back as practical so they don't melt, which is where you see WRCars with a glowing brick visible through the exhaust tip.