The frustrating thing about Schumi is in spite of 1997, he was not exactly a clean driver after that. Then after winning a bunch of driver's championship, he was held very high. So it's not as if 1997 taught any lessons, it just meant he was excluded. Noting Max contempt for on track warnings, yea....
And I'm SURE if Max drives Lewis off the road, the cry for "let them drive" will be really loud. As opposed to the cry to ban Lewis when Max turned in on him, and crashed out. Red BullE36 M3 and Max are quite a pair. He won't be excluded- especially for those who are just tired of Mercedes and Hamilton winning everything. And THAT is why Lewis didn't turn into the corner- he knew he would be blamed and the risk was too much. It's pretty awesome that he gathered himself and did the whole thing all over again.
alfadriver said:
And I'm SURE if Max drives Lewis off the road, the cry for "let them drive" will be really loud. As opposed to the cry to ban Lewis when Max turned in on him, and crashed out. Red BullE36 M3 and Max are quite a pair. He won't be excluded- especially for those who are just tired of Mercedes and Hamilton winning everything. And THAT is why Lewis didn't turn into the corner- he knew he would be blamed and the risk was too much. It's pretty awesome that he gathered himself and did the whole thing all over again.
Even if he wasn't blamed, a double DNF works heavily in Verstappen's favor at this point in the season. The stewards can only take points away from your competitor, they can't give them back to you after he crashed your car.
759NRNG
UberDork
11/17/21 10:09 p.m.
alfadriver said:
The frustrating thing about Schumi is in spite of 1997, he was not exactly a clean driver after that. Then after winning a bunch of driver's championship, he was held very high. So it's not as if 1997 taught any lessons, it just meant he was excluded. Noting Max contempt for on track warnings, yea....
And I'm SURE if Max drives Lewis off the road, the cry for "let them drive" will be really loud. As opposed to the cry to ban Lewis when Max turned in on him, and crashed out. Red BullE36 M3 and Max are quite a pair. He won't be excluded- especially for those who are just tired of Mercedes and Hamilton winning everything. And THAT is why Lewis didn't turn into the corner- he knew he would be blamed and the risk was too much. It's pretty awesome that he gathered himself and did the whole thing all over again.
Okay, am I to presume that YOU and KT are the preeminent authorities on all things lh vs MV from here on in till the end of this season and dare NOT question what we(y'all) say?
759NRNG said:
alfadriver said:
The frustrating thing about Schumi is in spite of 1997, he was not exactly a clean driver after that. Then after winning a bunch of driver's championship, he was held very high. So it's not as if 1997 taught any lessons, it just meant he was excluded. Noting Max contempt for on track warnings, yea....
And I'm SURE if Max drives Lewis off the road, the cry for "let them drive" will be really loud. As opposed to the cry to ban Lewis when Max turned in on him, and crashed out. Red BullE36 M3 and Max are quite a pair. He won't be excluded- especially for those who are just tired of Mercedes and Hamilton winning everything. And THAT is why Lewis didn't turn into the corner- he knew he would be blamed and the risk was too much. It's pretty awesome that he gathered himself and did the whole thing all over again.
Okay, am I to presume that YOU and KT are the preeminent authorities on all things lh vs MV from here on in till the end of this season and dare NOT question what we(y'all) say?
It is getting pretty trite in here...
So we have a new track, Qatar. Which should be interesting, since the track was designed for bikes. Tomorrow's practices will be interesting to see who gets the set up right.
So the FIA has denied Mercedes right to review Max's running Lewis off the road. I find it interesting how drivers have commented how they will change their driving if Max is not punished for what happened. McLaren is bothered because Lando was punished for nearly a carbon copy of the incident earlier in the season
loosecannon said:
So the FIA has denied Mercedes right to review Max's running Lewis off the road. I find it interesting how drivers have commented how they will change their driving if Max is not punished for what happened. McLaren is bothered because Lando was punished for nearly a carbon copy of the incident earlier in the season
What's frustrating to me is that it seems like regional level Spec Miata drivers show better racecraft than this. Missing your marks by such a degree that you need to drive off track far enough that you can fit two whole cars between you and the apron is an incredibly massive error that either indicates a tremendous lack of skill or malicious intent. I don't care to make the argument that Max was actually trying to hit anyone, because it's not possible to prove that. But I do believe that the immediate punishment for his mistake should have been to give Lewis the position.
"Let them race" only works when everyone on track is competing in good faith. Those who either aren't competing in good faith or are driving at such a low level of skill that they're a safety hazard need to be addressed swiftly and fairly so that all other competitors on track feel that it's safe to actually race one another.
Clearly on any given weekend any driver can make a mistake, and that's fine. But for me, as a complete and total amateur hack I measure my mistakes on track in inches, not entire car widths. If I overcook a corner I'm missing the apex by a couple of feet but adjusting to keep the car on the actual track. That Max seems to be incapable of even that says something about him.
So Red BullE36 M3 is still having troubles with their DRS flapping. Fascinating that they have been allowed to fix their wings in Parc Ferme when Mercedes was just DQ's from qualifying.
In reply to MrFancypants :
It's curious to me that Max only makes serious mistakes like that when Hamilton is the one he would run into. Hmmm...... For such a skilled driver (so we are told) who never makes mistakes- odd timing that he makes them only when a specific driver is near him.
But it would be interesting if the rest of the field starts getting in on the lack of penalties when they are given harsh penalties doing lesser things.
We've been through this cycle before in the last couple of years. Max seems to be at the center of all the "let them race" calls, the other drivers start getting more aggressive, cars get smash, the penalties ramp up again...then Max starts "racing hard" and it all repeats.
It's all very frustrating as someone who really wants to enjoy F1 and take it seriously. I can appreciate that so many people want to see someone, anyone, other than Lewis and Mercedes take a title. I remember being bored to tears with the Schumacher run, and then Vettel's dominance, but I'd rather see Lewis wrap up a driver's title with five races left than have to cringe through this.
All I want to see is some good racing. If Lewis is winning every race then whatever, push the camera's back and follow the battle between Ferrari and McLaren.
Not sure where to put this other than here- but seeing the old F1 car at Laguna Seca made me think of this.
F1 should allow the teams to do serious research into battery technology. Like in the quantum change we all need for batteries and EVs. Maybe they all team up and do it together, but it's the hybrid system (read battery) that is forcing the cars to get so long and heavy. The OEM's love the hybrid set ups, but if they REALLY want to get their bang for their buck, they need to allow F1 to drive some serious hardcore research. OEM research is 5-6 years upstream of when they will go. F1 has to be way faster than that.
This is easily the way that F1 can really contribute to road cars these days, as it's very much needed. And based on racing requirements, F1 will address everything except for 500k mile durability- but they will work the batteries so hard, that it will go a long way to emulate it.
alfadriver said:
So Red BullE36 M3 is still having troubles with their DRS flapping. Fascinating that they have been allowed to fix their wings in Parc Ferme when Mercedes was just DQ's from qualifying.
You do realize that the DRS flap actuator is supplied and controlled by the FIA and not the teams, right?
In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :
It's not the actuator flapping the wing, the wing is flapping the actuator (fluttering is the better term here).
In reply to adam525i :
So, the aero loads are great enough to move the wing at speed, but the wing is strong enough to pass the test in Parc Ferme. With that amount of flutter I can see why they were concerned with the structure at Austin, you would think the wing would shake itself apart at some point. Horner et. al don't seem to be too concerned, so it's not costing them any performance. Could that be considered a "moving" airfoil?
alfadriver said:
Not sure where to put this other than here- but seeing the old F1 car at Laguna Seca made me think of this.
F1 should allow the teams to do serious research into battery technology. Like in the quantum change we all need for batteries and EVs. Maybe they all team up and do it together, but it's the hybrid system (read battery) that is forcing the cars to get so long and heavy. The OEM's love the hybrid set ups, but if they REALLY want to get their bang for their buck, they need to allow F1 to drive some serious hardcore research. OEM research is 5-6 years upstream of when they will go. F1 has to be way faster than that.
This is easily the way that F1 can really contribute to road cars these days, as it's very much needed. And based on racing requirements, F1 will address everything except for 500k mile durability- but they will work the batteries so hard, that it will go a long way to emulate it.
I know the battery is a spec unit in Formula E, but isn't it open in F1? What's stopping the teams from doing the serious research?
Lewis's Lid for the Qatar GP <3
Got 'dem stones.
In reply to z31maniac :
So what was stopping the teams from doing the serious research a year ago? :)
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I think the power limits reduce how effective it can be, and I'm wondering if there's also a fixed weight limit.
Also, much of this research is up to the engine manufacturers instead of the teams. Heck, for the batteries, I would be ok if Renault, Ferrari, Mercedes, and Audi (whoever it is) makes a big consortium to do a racing based R&D program- to help the entire field as well as the entire industry.
The first big step will be to lift the regen and usage limits. I think those hinder development. For sure, F1 can give them a carrot of lowering the allowed limits.
The point is more to lower the weight and size of the entire hybrid system- and lifting the rules on the hybrid system will let that be more possible. As long as they have to have one, and there's a total fuel limit- the need of a hybrid system is required. Now it's to make it better- which helps the world hybrids and the world EVs. IMHO, they will be more open to wild experimentation that OEMs are not.
Keith Tanner said:
In reply to z31maniac :
So what was stopping the teams from doing the serious research a year ago? :)
Oh, and for most of the hyrbid era, what the system is allowed to do is limited- there was limits on how much could be harvested (especially from the turbo) and limits on how it could be used.
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to adam525i :
So, the aero loads are great enough to move the wing at speed, but the wing is strong enough to pass the test in Parc Ferme. With that amount of flutter I can see why they were concerned with the structure at Austin, you would think the wing would shake itself apart at some point. Horner et. al don't seem to be too concerned, so it's not costing them any performance. Could that be considered a "moving" airfoil?
They pulled the cars in pretty quick to make changes during FP2 so I'm sure they are worried about Mercedes making that claim if it happens during the race/qualifying. Flutter will tear a control surface off of an airplane in short order so I'd imagine those wings won't fare any better if left unchecked, if it happens in the race they will likely lose DRS after that or risk the wing failing and the car retiring.
I watched a pair of Kermit Weeks (Fantasy of Flight, Orlampa Florida) videos recently of them doing a flutter test in the 90's on his replica Gee Bee Z, being a faithful replica it had the same problem that destroyed the original and killed the pilot in 1931. They are worth a watch, even just to appreciate the knowledge and testing setup of the engineer who was pioneering this stuff through WW2 doing it. It seems like a bit of weight added in the right place can solve these sorts of problems.
Video 1 and Video 2
In reply to alfadriver :
More like the glory days of LMP1 then. When we had batteries and super caps and flywheels and multiple allowable limits for regen. I'm all for it.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Pretty much. F1 is getting complaints because the cars are getting bigger and heavier- which is pretty much directly related to the hybrid system. AND this is very much one area where F1 development can translate very well to everyone else. And that incudes the supercaps, since they are a great short term solution to engine braking recovery.
But let them focus on size and weight. All of those benefits help all of us.
