wvumtnbkr said:
When you are 1st and setting fast laps, with your team mate behind, Why pit?
Still not sure what the he'll happened there with Lewis hitting max. It wasn't like Lewis didn't hit his marks in a brake zone. It was like max just way overslowed and caused the incident. However, there was room to the left, so....?
If Mercedes hadn't pitted, Red Bull would have. If the red flag then hadn't happened (and despite what the commentators said, it wasn't at all obvious that it would) then they'd be in the position of needing to open up a 20 second gap over Verstappen to hold the lead. This is one of those situations in which the guy behind has an 'advantage' in that he can do the opposite of what the leader does to create opportunities.
What I think happened with the collision was that Verstappen knew he needed to let Hamilton by, but wanted to do it "strategically", in a way in which he could take the position back immediately. So he was trying to get Hamilton to pass him right before the DRS detection line so that he'd have DRS down the straight, Hamilton wouldn't, and he'd be able to repass into turn 1. Hamilton didn't know what was going on, so he followed behind, and when Verstappen started slowing down he slowed as well (thinking there was more debris or another VSC? who knows?). Then when Hamilton started to go by Verstappen hit the brakes to try the DRS thing at the last second and bang.
The DRS thing is dumb, though. Spa 2008 showed that giving up a position in a way that retains enough advantage in order to immediately retake that position doesn't actually count as giving up a position. Note that in that race Hamilton got a 25 second penalty, not the paltry 5 seconds Verstappen did.
wvumtnbkr said:
Still not sure what the he'll happened there with Lewis hitting max. It wasn't like Lewis didn't hit his marks in a brake zone. It was like max just way overslowed and caused the incident. However, there was room to the left, so....?
Post race review showed that Max jumped on the brakes to the tune of 2.4 Gs of deceleration. I know an F1 car is capable of somewhere in the area of 5 G deceleration, but what Max did was still pretty significant.
I take back what I said about Max being cool under pressure. What a tool. So many terrible, desperate decisions.
I think Ocon deserved driver of the day, certainly more than Max. He was the closest mid field driver to the leaders and was right there with them at times. I like Mercedes, but I was sad that Bottas passed him at the finish line. They didn't really show much of him on the TV feed, but he appeared to have a great race worthy of recognition.
-chris r.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
wvumtnbkr said:
When you are 1st and setting fast laps, with your team mate behind, Why pit?
Still not sure what the he'll happened there with Lewis hitting max. It wasn't like Lewis didn't hit his marks in a brake zone. It was like max just way overslowed and caused the incident. However, there was room to the left, so....?
If Mercedes hadn't pitted, Red Bull would have. If the red flag then hadn't happened (and despite what the commentators said, it wasn't at all obvious that it would) then they'd be in the position of needing to open up a 20 second gap over Verstappen to hold the lead. This is one of those situations in which the guy behind has an 'advantage' in that he can do the opposite of what the leader does to create opportunities.
What I think happened with the collision was that Verstappen knew he needed to let Hamilton by, but wanted to do it "strategically", in a way in which he could take the position back immediately. So he was trying to get Hamilton to pass him right before the DRS detection line so that he'd have DRS down the straight, Hamilton wouldn't, and he'd be able to repass into turn 1. Hamilton didn't know what was going on, so he followed behind, and when Verstappen started slowing down he slowed as well (thinking there was more debris or another VSC? who knows?). Then when Hamilton started to go by Verstappen hit the brakes to try the DRS thing at the last second and bang.
The DRS thing is dumb, though. Spa 2008 showed that giving up a position in a way that retains enough advantage in order to immediately retake that position doesn't actually count as giving up a position. Note that in that race Hamilton got a 25 second penalty, not the paltry 5 seconds Verstappen did.
Still not sure why they wouldn't at least split strategy and leave 1 merc in front.
Also, it was clear to me, after watching the f2 races, that there would be numerous safety cars and vsc.
When it was happening live, I was yelling at the laptop. I figured it would be a red flag. Even if it wasn't, okay. You both should probably pit again anyway. Or, you would have the chance to.
If it was my call, I would have brought in Lewis and had bottas try to hold off verstappen or at least slow him down. Should have not been too hard given the mercs straight line advantage.
Keith Tanner said:
I take back what I said about Max being cool under pressure. What a tool. So many terrible, desperate decisions.
It was a lot easier to be cool when Lewis needed to win three races in a row just to catch up and everyone on the planet thought the championship was sealed up.
intrepid said:
I think Ocon deserved driver of the day, certainly more than Max. He was the closest mid field driver to the leaders and was right there with them at times. I like Mercedes, but I was sad that Bottas passed him at the finish line. They didn't really show much of him on the TV feed, but he appeared to have a great race worthy of recognition.
-chris r.
That was a tough one though. I was sad for Ocon, but definitely happy for Bottas.
Keith Tanner said:
I take back what I said about Max being cool under pressure. What a tool. So many terrible, desperate decisions.
May Verstappen asphyxiate on a satchel of Richards.
In reply to wvumtnbkr :
Hard to say of course but sure looked like Max was wiggling back and forth while slowing.
Hardly a wide track and didn't look like good idea to me to go buzzing past at full song either.
MrFancypants said:
intrepid said:
I think Ocon deserved driver of the day, certainly more than Max. He was the closest mid field driver to the leaders and was right there with them at times. I like Mercedes, but I was sad that Bottas passed him at the finish line. They didn't really show much of him on the TV feed, but he appeared to have a great race worthy of recognition.
-chris r.
That was a tough one though. I was sad for Ocon, but definitely happy for Bottas.
I wish we'd been able to see more of those last few laps with the fight for fourth. I understand that they have to show the winner crossing the line even if he's 30 seconds ahead, but c'mon - let's see two guys desperately duking it out.
I am sure Lewis and MB are painfully aware how Max's penalty is light compared to what happened to Lewis in Spa 2008.
Lewis doesn't have to be afraid of Max to know Max is driving dirty, not aggressive or innovative or hard, dirty. So he has to drive assuming Max intends to do active harm. Like dive bombng into every corner. After watching the replay is is amazing how Max is so luckly he is racing against such good drivers that can avoid his intentionally just not braking to make a corner. Over and over again.
Sucks because he doesn't have to drive that way to be WDC. But he has been in a team in a time that they try to get a win at any cost because they were too slow to win the WDC. Thus they have spent years coaching him that crash or win is the optimal. I always wished he would have left to Ferrari or McLaren or even Renault years ago.
I know Max may win this and as Toto said, I will accept that. I just hope F1 keeps fighting to prevent F1 from being a dive bomb show. Going off track almost every time a passing attempt happens isn't cool.
What I noted was how the drivers looked after this race. It took a toll on them Max, Lewis, Bottas and others looked properly physically and mentally taxed.
Someone tell me if this thought is out of line...
Max stated in the post race interview that he knew Lewis was following closely, but he still applied significantly pressure to the brakes anyway. Should this be compared to the Schumacher/Villeneuve incident? As far as I know Schumacher never actually admitted that he tried to ram Villeneuve.
I'm not really a fan of Lewis and I'm ready for his domination to end, so I'm not trying to be dramatic here. But unlike any other incident this season this one feels like there may have been some actual intent.
Max and Christian are a match made in heaven. Even when Vettel and Max crashed out their teammates, they were never really blamed. Really shows why Ricciardo left the team, as I see it. RBR is a meat grinder for the second driver. Even when their driver is clearly at blame, they blame everyone else, including the ones handing down the penalties.
They are claiming that the two drivers be just allowed to race, even when they were allowed to race and their driver crashed- they wanted to eliminate Hamilton from the race just because. So all the driving rules apply to everyone else but Max.
"Red Bull takes off WINGS".
In reply to alfadriver :
Exactly. "Let them race" is code for "Let MAX do whatever he wants" I see Dr. Marko and Christian have been quiet since the stewards meeting.
EDIT: Spoke too soon, this from motorsport.com Christian being christian
In reply to alfadriver :
If Max wins the title,and I'm fine if he does it cleanly,will he receive the same amount of respect Rosberg has being WDC?
Or is his fan base too strong now to care how he earns it?
In reply to kevlarcorolla :
?? Nico only drove Lewis off the track badly once- and it resulted in a double DNF. He drove Lewis wide more than once, but never did what Max is doing- as I recall. Nico also didn't have Horner yapping all the time how everyone is biased against him, trying to justify the antics that max does.
I'll give Max Vettel respect as opposed to Nico respect. He may drive well, but that does not make him an admirable racer.
This is just a continuation of Vettel at Red Bull- being a fast driver but a pretty poor racer.
In reply to kevlarcorolla :
Max has characteristics that remind me of Schumacher and he had a rabid fan base who didn't seem to care, so I doubt Max has to worry about losing any fans. I was just coming around to thinking Max wasn't that kind of driver, but the last few races are showing cracks in the friendly facade. I won't be the least bit surprised if Max takes out Lewis in the next race, I think he's hot-headed enough to do it. He and his father have some history of aggressive behaviour.
Edit: @alfadriver.....Max has Horner encouraging him publicly, but there's Jos doing the same thing privately, too.
In reply to alfadriver :
I like the word "admirable". I see Lewis that way, but not Max, just as I have never admired Schumacher. I'm getting tired of the Lewis and Mercedes show, but I'm pulling for him this year just so he has one more title than Schuey. Next year someone else can step up.
In reply to alfadriver :
I seem to remember more then a few times Nico running Lewis wide with divebombs and no effort to make the corner.
Same kind of sloppy race craft Max uses,I too was impressed at the beginning of this yr thinking he'd finally matured but seems not.
And makes it clear he thinks his "style" is real racing.
Going off track when "off track" was gravel sure made the drivers less adventurous.
alfadriver said:
In reply to kevlarcorolla :
This is just a continuation of Vettel at Red Bull- being a fast driver but a pretty poor racer.
I'm pleased to see someone else make this distinction. Not everyone gets that.
I disagree, though, with Max not being a good racer. He is a very good racer, in that he understands the way to set up for a pass, how to hound someone into a mistake and take advantage, and so on.
What he absolutely is not, is gentlemanly, or concerned with the consequences of his aggressive actions.
Which may make him a not-good racer...
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to alfadriver :
Exactly. "Let them race" is code for "Let MAX do whatever he wants" I see Dr. Marko and Christian have been quiet since the stewards meeting.
EDIT: Spoke too soon, this from motorsport.com Christian being christian
Horner was left frustrated at a number of decisions made by current F1 race director Michael Masi during the Jeddah race – which included the five-place grid penalty that ultimately cost Max Verstappen a chance of winning.
What 5-grid penalty? If they meant the 5 second penalty, even that turned out not to matter as the Mediums were falling off so badly.
