In reply to MrFancypants :
Absolutely. So Masi screwed up twice - 1) he waited too long (forcing the situation you described), and 2) to correct his first mistake he bent the rules to put the cars relevant to the world championship race in the proper position.
I'm just saying that - all things equal - there was enough time and laps to clear Latifi's car, get the unlapped cars in the proper location, and go green for a lap of racing. So a properly run safety car period would have resulted in the same situation. So in my humble Max-homer opinion, Lewis wasn't "screwed" he just was unable to take advantage of Masi's first screwup.
But that said, if I was a Mercedes fan I'd be furious that Latifi couldn't keep it on the track because Lewis was clearly the faster car today.
In reply to BrewCity20 :
In terms of whether or not he was screwed, it all comes down whether or not there's any scenario where Mercedes pit Hamilton from the lead. Let's say the crash happened 2 laps earlier and the Merc strategists predict 1 lap of green flag racing after a (proper) safety car period. Max is on 20 lap old hards. Do they pit from the lead and hope to pass him? No DRS remember.
I think Merc is pretty well screwed at that point, forced to keep track position but knowing Max has a free stop behind them for softs and will be almost impossible to keep behind. But I could be wrong.
In reply to steronz :
Yeah, the whole "leader conundrum" where the person in second ironically has all the strategic power seemed to come out a few times this year. It's just so hard to give up the lead and track position. If the roles were reversed I'm sure Max would have stayed out as well and Lewis would have had the fresh tires and you just hope the lack of DRS allows you to keep the lead. Leader just can't really win in that situation.
Latifi's crash just put Lewis in a no-win situation.
I follow F1 in as much as I watch the quali and race highlights that F1 puts out on YouTube, but that's about it. And I didn't really care much whether Hamilton or Verstappen won. But despite, or maybe because of, all the shenanigans that seemed like they went on in this race and this season, I'm surprised I haven't seen any comments noting that in the end a) Verstappen did not win this race by crashing into Hamilton, and b) from what I saw, Hamilton was a class act in the finish corrale and congratulated Verstappen.
Alright, so we know Max was gifted a WDC becuase Liberty Media is in Masi's ear to make it more exciting like NASCAR/WWE.
Did anyone else get screwed by ESPN yesterday? I specifically set my alarm early so I could watch the race, thought it was odd I was still seeing pre-race coverage after 7am CST. Then it went to commercial break and came back to lap 47 of 58?
The inconsistent calls of the stewards all year has made this a farce. I'm not a fan of "we will ignore the rules for a spectacle."
In reply to z31maniac :
I see what you did there...
(but, no, our coverage was normal- pre show until 7:55 EST when the official race coverage started, and then the whole race)
In reply to alfadriver :
:)
I'm expecting my guy and the whole team will come back with a serious vengeance next year and decimate everyone. Unfortunately, I suspect Max's terrible driving is only going to get worse since he has a WDC now and the FIA refuses to punish him.
They must not like Lewis's outspoken position on social issues...............considering they had no problem with guys like Max Mosley being in power.
It's my sincere hope that this is just some strange anomaly with the rules and their application. I think everyone talking about stewards all season has kind of taken something away.
I am fine with the outcome because as I said a few pages ago the championship wasn't gained or lost on the last lap yesterday. You can point to a handful of things all season long and say well if that went different then the outcome is different.
At one time I was a card carrying NASCAR fan (literally was a member since I crewed a local car). Then the show was more important than the racing, the playoffs, the green white checkers, the lucky dog etc etc. They jumped the shark and I just couldn't appreciate what it had become. F1 is where I turned and it has been great. I hope it doesn't turn to too much manipulation by the powers that be to make a good show and a sell advertising.
I have waited 24 hours to cool off and consider all opinions...
I thought the whole deal was a bogus Nascrap decision.
In effect the stewards allowed a competitor to pass 5 backmarkers and eliminate a 10 second deficit under a double yellow condition.
Say what you like about Mercedes pit decisions, but they had it won if the stewards had not of monkeyed it up for "the show".
Lewis had done a great job of getting enough speed on junk tires to keep Max 10 seconds back. Lewis had just managed to get past 5 backmarkers while maintaining that lead. Obviously he had it won if Max would have had to get past those 5 and make up 10 seconds. BS in my opinion.
Now back to your regular scheduled programming....
New York Nick said:
At one time I was a card carrying NASCAR fan (literally was a member since I crewed a local car). Then the show was more important than the racing, the playoffs, the green white checkers, the lucky dog etc etc. They jumped the shark and I just couldn't appreciate what it had become. F1 is where I turned and it has been great. I hope it doesn't turn to too much manipulation by the powers that be to make a good show and a sell advertising.
IMO, Indycar has the best balance between competition and "the show" right now. I wish it wasn't a spec series, but it's very healthy and growing right now. More cars are coming in, more talent from the feeder series and vets from other series, more tracks are being added to the schedule, and I think last year they went 8 races before there was a repeat winner.
So come on in! We have cookies! 
In reply to 06HHR (Forum Supporter) :
Red Bull and Horner were just given the ultimate ruling that was outside of the rules, right? I only read two of the articles you posted, and in both of them, Red Bull (Marko) and Horner were STILL playing victim. You guys got exactly what you wanted, and it's still not enough??? Seriously?
Maybe it's time to move on Mark0.
All the huffing and puffing about the FIA manipulating the rules and championships is hilarious. Have any of you ever followed F1 before?
In 1978 James Hunt was DQ'd from a race win because his car was too wide. That win was reinstated 2 months later and Hunt went on to barely nip Lauda for the WDC.
1989 Japanese GP, Prost (a Frenchman) tries to take Senna out but fails, Senna makes the most epic of drives and wins, is declared WDC and then the FIA (headed by a Frenchman) DQs him for not "rejoining where he left the track" and gives the title to Prost.
Heck just in 2010 there was the no team orders "Fernando is faster than you" that Ferrari got to keep. The FIA was the business of Ferrari Assistance for years.
You are more guaranteed to get organizational drama with F1 than nearly every other car racing.
^ exactly right. After sleeping on all of this- I still don't see how anything that happened was outside of the rules as written.
I agree that the rules may have been poorly administered, but having a safety car out on the last 5 laps of a world championship race created a situation of extreme duress for the race stewards and management, who were in a no-win situation. Everybody talks about Horner and his whining but Toto is just as bad, and as long as they're permitted to badger the stewards in the middle of the race, they will continue to do so to try to gain an advantage. The rest of the either/or scenarios are just idle speculation.
I'm not a fan of Lewis or Max, so I really had no dog in this hunt. It's a long season and there were many calls or non-calls on rules infractions that got them both to the brink of a championship. I think this season put that into clear light and my hope is that they adjust the written rules to provide more clarity for the stewards in the future.
In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :
Been following F1 since I was a kid. Show me one time a race director, or the stewards, or the FIA changed their interpretation of the rules while the race was in progress? Your examples are decisions made after the race, which are also controversial, but that's they way they have always done it. And the FIA was in the business of assisting Ferrari up until the Scuderia got busted in 2019 for those engine shenanigans IMHO, i was actually surprised they did anything. What happened at Abu Dhabi yesterday, is something different for F1. Which is why this is such a big deal after the fact, no one, not even people involved in F1 over the past 40 years have seen things happen in this way before. In the last couple of years (since Charlie actually) the FIA has gone from following the letter of the law if not the intent to basically making it up as they go. Christian complained about it in Jeddah, Toto and Racing Point complained about it last year with the "Pink Mercedes". Marko has actually said he will take his ball and go home if the sport doesn't regulate itself the way HE sees fit. So, is Red Bull the new Ferrari? Are the rules subordinate to "the show"? I think it's much bigger than if you are a Lewis fan or a Max fan. This is a change in the culture of the sport. Just my .02, worth what anyone paid for it.
Interesting opinion from JPM: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/video/formula-1-montoya-reacts-to-abu-dhabi-gp/513164/
My beef with yesterday is the half-baked way Masi did it. He let's the cars between Lewis and Max through so we can have a race, but he doesn't let the cars between Max and Carlos through. Let them all through or none move past the pace car....pick one. Ithink the safety car procedure is pretty clear, despite how the stewards have managed to slink out of it by granting Masi some omnipotent powers.
In reply to 06HHR (Forum Supporter) :
I've been following F1 since the 80's and can't remember when the race director discretion changed in the middle of a lap like that. Go from following the rules to to not in one lap. Should the race director be able to start the race on 3 lights instead of 5? It's just a procedure change, after all.
If this is going to change to just make it a better show, I'm not going to waste my time seeing the randomness just for the sake of "a better show"- either make it fair and consistent, or stop pretending to be such a pinnacle in racing. It's pretty simple.
For yesterday, the rules either apply to the whole field or to nobody. Choosing a dramatic finish that only applies to the top two is pretty weak- Sainz never had a chance to do anything.
Suggesting the previous inconsistencies are excuses for what happened yesterday is pretty weak, IMHO. First of all, every time the FIA has been inconsistent, it's been heavily criticized. Second, shouldn't F1 try to at least be more consistent with the rules??? When teams make decisions based on the rule books, they should be applicable, not random, where one team gets "the call". If yesterday is deemed ok, then stop trying to be something better than NASCAR.
Heck, though this season, it's become so much more clear that the race stewards should not change from race to race- the fact that they do means we get different answers to the same incidents. That part has gone far enough.
On the other hand, if this is just for TV ratings and the show, at least be honorable about it and tell us. So we don't have to waste time watching the entire race.
In reply to Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) :
I'm not sure I understand your complaint here. I mean, Latifi legitimately crashed and his car was on the track. The standard procedure there is to bring out a safety car and get the cars back in order for a restart which necessarily means Lewis loses his 10 second lead and the backmarkers get out of the way. It happens all the time in every form of motorsport. The stewards didn't "allow" anything.
Did it screw Hamilton who was clearly the faster car all night, absolutely. But that is racing. Faster cars lose all the time because of crap luck and ill-timed flags.
I mean look at Silverstone - Lewis was able to fix his car and continue the race only because a red flag was flown - but a red flag was the right thing to do given the severity of Max's crash. Hell look at Imola where Lewis was able to get a lap back only because his teammate happened to crash and a red was flown. Did those situations "screw" Max - did the stewards "allow" that to happen - of course not. The race gave Lewis opportunities to overcome an issue and he took advantage of it as he should have. Here, Max did the same by taking advantage of the yellows and the gap behind him to get faster tires - and having a yellow condition was completely legitimate. Was the execution under yellow E36 M3ty (E.g., only allowing some of the cars through instead of all of them like they should have and waiting too long to let the cars through making the situation chaotic and confusing) - absolutely - but that's on Masi who has been terrible with communication and consistency all year (I certainly won't argue that point). Everybody knew F1 would do absolutely everything in its power to end under green and Mercedes choose track position - they chose wrong.
Just my .02.
In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
Thanks Tom, I started to watch Indy this year some and I liked it. I will probably be tuning in more next year.
alfadriver said:
In reply to 06HHR (Forum Supporter) :
I've been following F1 since the 80's and can't remember when the race director discretion changed in the middle of a lap like that. Go from following the rules to to not in one lap. Should the race director be able to start the race on 3 lights instead of 5? It's just a procedure change, after all.
If this is going to change to just make it a better show, I'm not going to waste my time seeing the randomness just for the sake of "a better show"- either make it fair and consistent, or stop pretending to be such a pinnacle in racing. It's pretty simple.
For yesterday, the rules either apply to the whole field or to nobody. Choosing a dramatic finish that only applies to the top two is pretty weak- Sainz never had a chance to do anything.
Suggesting the previous inconsistencies are excuses for what happened yesterday is pretty weak, IMHO. First of all, every time the FIA has been inconsistent, it's been heavily criticized. Second, shouldn't F1 try to at least be more consistent with the rules??? When teams make decisions based on the rule books, they should be applicable, not random, where one team gets "the call". If yesterday is deemed ok, then stop trying to be something better than NASCAR.
Heck, though this season, it's become so much more clear that the race stewards should not change from race to race- the fact that they do means we get different answers to the same incidents. That part has gone far enough.
On the other hand, if this is just for TV ratings and the show, at least be honorable about it and tell us. So we don't have to waste time watching the entire race.
Alfa - a question that I suspect you would probably know and I was thinking of differently after reading your post.
Is the standard operating procedure that if there isn't "time" to get the back markers out of the way they just keep them in place and go green? Is that even an option? I ask because I can't think of a time where they were left where they were.
In reply to BrewCity20 :
I only know the answer because Twitter posted the screenshot so many times
The rule is written such that either they compress the whole field up leaving all lapped cars where they are, remove the safety car and go racing, or they have all lapped cars pass the safety car once to get back in position at the back of the pack in the correct order, then remove the safety car and go racing
Emphasis mine
In reply to BrewCity20 :
The actual application of the start of the SC was correct. Arguably late, as it was immediately clear that Latifi could not be pushed off from a off track location.
What was wrong was that once the track is clear of all workers- then ALL of the back markers were to go by- that's the first thing. And then all of them are given an entire lap under the SC to catch up to the back of the pack. That's the procedure as laid out. Once the cars were let by the leaders to get by, that should have forced one more SC lap, which would have finished the race under yellow.
The alternate to not let the back markers by at the discretion of the race director would not have triggered that.
Those are the two problems with how the race ended. Neither were followed.
The far better choice in that instance was to red flag the race. Heck, even NASCAR knows that this is the better way to get the last 10 laps in.
I know nothing , but I guess its better to come down to the last minutes of the last race than have the championship decided 5 races before the end ,
Next season is in a few months......
Merry Christmas
