Low power towing in the Appalachians, what to expect?

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Streetwiseguy said:

I'm seeing a lot of third gear, with several excursions to second.

3 liter Japanese truck engines are not torque monsters.  A 305 tbi Chev from the 90s would be a far better choice, and it would be bad.

I towed my RX-7 home from Nashville with a 3 liter Montero.

 

it was perfectly adequate.  Was able to easily accelerate uphill up to 75-80mph and actually pass traffic instead of blocking it.  The 6G72 is a stout mill and can deal with it.  I felt way more comfortable holding the V6 up at 3500-4000 of whatever it was, than driving a small block Chevy at 3000-3500rpm for hours because you can't use overdrive and tow with a 4L60.  (Well, you can, if you are a transmission replacement enthusiast)

 

Another way, you'll never find yourself wishing to be able to go faster than the chassis feels comfortable towing.

That was also with the RX7 on a tow dolly. 

I've recently made that trip (VA to Ohio) with an RX7 and a ton of parts on a full trailer towed by a 5.3l Chevy half ton. It was annoying, lots of 40-45mph up hills. 

The last trip was the same trailer with a Miata behind my 6.0L one ton van. Better but still 50-55mph up some of the longer grades. 

I wouldn't want to do it in a Montero with a trailer, I would probably consider it with a dolly behind the Montero. 

Streetwiseguy said:

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

You only need brakes on one trailer axle, usually the back axle. The way the equalizers are set up, the rear axle will lift the front under hard braking. Most trailers don't have brakes on the front axle unless you are over 10k pounds. 

I respectfully disagree. 
 

What you said is true, but I wouldn't do it for frequent mountain towing in a Montero. 
 

4 brakes are better than 2. And there is very little price difference. 

Also, completely not legal where I live.  All wheels on any trailer capable of hauling more than ??2500?? pounds needs operational brakes on every wheel.

I have the ticket to prove that, and the bill for installing backing plates and drums on the rear axle.

Hmm, SC law does state all wheels if the trailer is over #3000. I don't think my 20' enclosed had brakes on both axles but it stopped very well. 

This thing uses the same base engine as a 3000GT.  Feed it boost.

There.  Someone had to say it.

In reply to dannyp84 :

No issues with people roaring up from behind. Most of my issues are people weaving in and out of traffic; they try to slice in behind the van and then have an "oh crap" moment when they realize there is a trailer behind the van. 

In reply to Tom1200 :

For more than a decade I towed behind either a S10 Blazer  or S15 Jimmy. The trailer was a tandem axle enclosed trailer filled with the race car,spare engine/ Trans. And a very heavy tool chest  and roller.  Not just in the Midwest but all over the country.   
    Rockies, Appalachians, Sierra Nevada.   Never had an issue.  I did understand momentum and built up as much speed going up and kept it cool going down.  I don't recall dropping much below 40.  That little 2.8 was a good sturdy little V6. 
Yes the V8 pickup was better, I could set the cruise control and not worry. 

ProDarwin said:

This thing uses the same base engine as a 3000GT.  Feed it boost.

There.  Someone had to say it.

Ah, yes, that paragon of reliability...

I frequently tow 3500 lbs with my Branger with 160hp/225tq.  M5OD trans, 3.73 rear.

It gets the job done, even with what I assume is a half-clogged catalyst.  Not fast at the tops of mountains, but not 18-wheeler slow either.

I've done a lot of towing from Harrisburg PA to Clarksburg WV that way and it's a lot of elevation change, but not awful.  The PA and MD part are pretty flat until you get to Garrett county, then it's more curves and rolling hills to Clarksburg.

When I think of Mountains, I think of Denver, or Flagstaff.

No one should attempt a tow like that with less than F-250.  Wait.  That's '00's thinking.  F-350.  Oh no.  '10's thinking.  F-450.  But wait, 450's are so pre pandemic.  An F-550.  That's what you need for this tow.  Just ask my neighbor.

I tow my 23' camper with my GMT400 suburban and it is grossly underpowered. It's an L05 tbi truck. I have towed it several thousand miles on the highway and uphills can be a slog at 45 mph in second gear. I put on my 4 ways at 55 and no one has ever run up on me. The people not caring or understanding what you are doing can be an ass ache. Like if you are going up and down hills and you want to run up to 70 so you can maintain 55 going up the next hill and some car has their cruise set at 63 so you can't get pass them on the way down the hill and you have to ride your brakes. 
Sorry long story to say as long as it's stable you can have low power, it just isn't super fun. 

A GMT800 or equivalent Tahoe or Suburban is what I would use for that stretch. The 5.3 with the 4speed auto (4l60?) is adequate. The 6.0 on the 1500 or 2500 would do a better job thanks to a wee bit more torque. The 4 speed is lacking compared to a 5-6 speed auto. 
 

Maybe also the Toyota Sequoia or Tundra with the big v8 since those should be equipped with a 5speed auto and later years 2007+  with a 6 speed 

I know I68 pretty well, usually take it to rallies in PA and NY and north, and also cross the Apps to rallycross in WVa. and Ohio. I tow open deck 1800 lb trailer with 2800lb car (e30). For a few years I had a V6 4Runner (08) and it was sufficient but not by much. Then an 05 Sequoia which was better, and now a '10 Sequoia which makes it pretty easy.

I also own a V6 Raider (a bit less powerful but basically the same V6 as your Montero) and am familiar with Monteros in general. 

I would not want to tow with the Montero in the mountains, personally. Power is sub-par but brakes are even more sub-par. Maybe/Maybe 2000s Monteros withe the 3.8 and bigger brakes, but even then they're probably not as good as my 4Runner, which was borderline in the mountains. The route you're talking about has some very, very long uphill grades. Even my Sequoia would be chugging at 30-40mph by the top at some of those unless I had the pedal on the floor. Colorado it ain't, but doing a 7-mile uphill is much nicer when you have something that you don't have to be at 5k RPM just to keep up with tractor trailers. 

A 401 CJ said:

No one should attempt a tow like that with less than F-250.  Wait.  That's '00's thinking.  F-350.  Oh no.  '10's thinking.  F-450.  But wait, 450's are so pre pandemic.  An F-550.  That's what you need for this tow.  Just ask my neighbor.

We've all towed with old E36 M3box rigs with 1980s brakes and 1980s power. Sure, it can be done. After all, people did it in the 80s. And by no means am I a "buy a 7-liter diesel to tow a garden trailer" kind of guy. But there's something to be said for having enough power and brakes to make a towing trip pleasant and easy rather than a white-knuckle drive for 10 hours. Most modern V8 SUVs or regular pickups (read: F150, not F550) are the ticket for towing a car trailer. I like my tows to be drama-free (since my racing rarely is). 

I mean, people also used to drive cars with four drum brakes and 56 horsepower. Sure, you can still do that if you want to, but there are better tools for the job. 

You need something like this:

I say do a test run on your local roads and see. I've seen people tow cars with Geo Trackers and be happy.

Personally on the passes here an 80s Chevy van with a 305 could barely pull itself up it but that's the Rockies.

I think I'd be more worried about stopping though, no one I've ever known that has a Montero lists the brakes as a good feature

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

I think this is what's actually weighing on my mind, I think the Montero can do the job, but it will likely not be enjoyable. The RX7 is a joy to drive but it's also physically demanding, after a long day at the track I'd like whatever I'm towing with to not be a stressful experience..

dannyp84 said:

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

I think this is what's actually weighing on my mind, I think the Montero can do the job, but it will likely not be enjoyable. The RX7 is a joy to drive but it's also physically demanding, after a long day at the track I'd like whatever I'm towing with to not be a stressful experience..

Your genius is showing.  There is a huge difference between adequate and really good.

I wouldn't use my Branger to tow that 3500 lbs cross-country.  250 miles to the finger lakes?  No problem.  Down the street to a buddy's house?  Hold my beer, I'll use a Dodge Omni.  I found that out when I full-timed in an RV.  The trailer was 10k gvw, and since I was living in it, it likely was right around that weight.  I towed it with a 95 F250 powerstroke.  By the numbers, more than enough truck, and 80% of the time it was. But I wish I had done a dually to get more rubber on the road.  31 feet of billboard was just fine for short trips, but at the end of a 8-12 hour driving day trying to make time from New Orleans to L.A., the constant micro-corrections add up and makes for white knuckles by sunset.  After a day like that it sorta made me a bear.

I towed for 20 years with a Chev Astro, open deck steel trailer, surge brakes on one axle. The van really needed more brakes. Power would have been nice, but wasn't necessary. In 2017 I towed to the Challenge from Michigan, but the Astro was at 250K so I went to Enterprise to rent a truck. When I mentioned towing they immediately sent me to their commercial rental unit, so instead of an F-150 I got an F-250 Super Duty skyscraper height crew cab. It towed effortlessly.......like I caught myself early Sunday morning doing 90 through southern Georgia easy.  I did have to make one panic stop on I-75 and it feels really reassuring when the trailer brakes work well enough that you can feel the trailer pulling on the truck, so make sure your trailer brakes are in good shape.

New York Nick said:

... as long as it's stable you can have low power, it just isn't super fun. 

This is really the answer to your question.  From there you need to decide how important it is for you to have an enjoyable tow. 

In the '90s I towed between 4 and 8 thousand pounds all around the northeast with The Worlds Ugliest Econoline.  It's 302 fuelly roaring away, wide open in second gear up most hills, speed dropping down to 40 MPH or lower climbing mountains and traffic flying by me up hills and getting in my way slowing momentum on the down. 

At the time that van was all I could afford and if I wasn't willing to tow with it I'd have missed out on some really great adventures.  My current RAM 3500 is many times more capable than that old Ford and it's amazing to be able to comfortably set the cruise control at 80 wit h 10k pounds behind it and watch the scenery flow effortlessly by but If I had to choose between going back to something like the Econoline or not racing I'd hook up the Econoline without hesitation.

obsolete said:

ProDarwin said:

This thing uses the same base engine as a 3000GT.  Feed it boost.

There.  Someone had to say it.

Ah, yes, that paragon of reliability...

lol

In reply to APEowner :

I think as of now the plan is to bring the trailer home when it's complete via the Montero, towing the empty trailer which is 1500 lbs will be a good warm up to see what it's like. Most likely though, I'll use the off season to find a more capable tow vehicle - I didn't want to own and maintain 4 vehicles, but there's definitely a hole in my lineup as far as a capable tow rig and a comfortable long distance cruiser, perhaps the 4th vehicle can be both those things. 

Nissan Titans might be worth a look at.  They seem to have depreciated pretty well and have a decently stout V8. 

I used to tow a double car hauler with a 1rst gen Dodge Cummins.  160 HP, 400 lb-ft.  Between truck, trailer, 2 cars, my butt, and some other stuff in the bed that was around a 20,000 pound rolling E36 M3show, and all of 50 feet long.  Heading up I-40 through the Blue Ridge Mountains it was 3rd gear and 38 mph, all the way.

dannyp84 said:

In reply to APEowner :

I think as of now the plan is to bring the trailer home when it's complete via the Montero, towing the empty trailer which is 1500 lbs will be a good warm up to see what it's like. Most likely though, I'll use the off season to find a more capable tow vehicle - I didn't want to own and maintain 4 vehicles, but there's definitely a hole in my lineup as far as a capable tow rig and a comfortable long distance cruiser, perhaps the 4th vehicle can be both those things. 

I know that generally folks on this board don't like pickup trucks as daily drivers but when I bought my first nice truck I decided that I really didn't want to maintain it and a daily and sold the daily.  I've been using a truck as my daily for the 30 years since then.  That does mean that I'm one of those guys you see driving a huge pickup truck around by myself with no cargo or trailer but I don't actually care what other people think about that.  In addition to not having to maintain another vehicle I know that the truck is always ready to go because I'm in it every day.  Just another thought to add to the mix.

In reply to APEowner :

I think a truck or truck-like vehicle is easier to appreciate when you don't have to drive it every day. My commute is roughly 4 miles of windy hilly two lane, and my IS300 makes that really enjoyable. Right now I'm driving the RX-7 daily because I cracked a wheel on the IS, so more fun with less practicality at the moment. However, those 10-15 times a year when you need a truck, nothing else really substitutes..

You can make a usable truck that is fun to drive. I've done it a few times.moderate lowering kit, big sway bars, bigger brakes. Done. If I could have only one vehicle to do everything it would be a truck. GMT800 RCSB, 4.8 5-spd truck. 04-06. 3/5 drop, big sway bars, good LSD good seats ang done.

Something else to keep in mind when overtowing an underpowered vehicle is the toll on the driver. It's harder when it's barely capable. When you have a truly capable vehicle you find yourself less stressed and less tired.