Low power towing in the Appalachians, what to expect?

mdshaw said:

You need something like this:

Around my neck o'the woods that is called a vuck

In reply to dannyp84 :

After getting a Van I'm really sold on them. If I didn't have the camper van I'd go with a cargo van with one row of seats added. The prices on vans are still reasonable.

volvoclearinghouse said:

Nissan Titans might be worth a look at.  They seem to have depreciated pretty well and have a decently stout V8. 

I used to tow a double car hauler with a 1rst gen Dodge Cummins.  160 HP, 400 lb-ft.  Between truck, trailer, 2 cars, my butt, and some other stuff in the bed that was around a 20,000 pound rolling E36 M3show, and all of 50 feet long.  Heading up I-40 through the Blue Ridge Mountains it was 3rd gear and 48 mph, all the way.

I second the Titan. I have a friend with one it impresses me. If I wasn't such a cheap-ass I would buy a 10-year old one for my work truck

Tom1200 said:

In reply to dannyp84 :

After getting a Van I'm really sold on them. If I didn't have the camper van I'd go with a cargo van with one row of seats added. The prices on vans are still reasonable.

Yuk on Vans.  I've got such short legs I'm tempted to just staple a pair of shoes on my butt cheeks. But after a few hours in a van I want to chew my left leg off.  No place to put it. The wheel well intrudes  where  the leg naturally wants to be.   

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

dannyp84 said:

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

I think this is what's actually weighing on my mind, I think the Montero can do the job, but it will likely not be enjoyable. The RX7 is a joy to drive but it's also physically demanding, after a long day at the track I'd like whatever I'm towing with to not be a stressful experience..

Your genius is showing.  There is a huge difference between adequate and really good.

I wouldn't use my Branger to tow that 3500 lbs cross-country.  250 miles to the finger lakes?  No problem.  Down the street to a buddy's house?  Hold my beer, I'll use a Dodge Omni.  I found that out when I full-timed in an RV.  The trailer was 10k gvw, and since I was living in it, it likely was right around that weight.  I towed it with a 95 F250 powerstroke.  By the numbers, more than enough truck, and 80% of the time it was. But I wish I had done a dually to get more rubber on the road.  31 feet of billboard was just fine for short trips, but at the end of a 8-12 hour driving day trying to make time from New Orleans to L.A., the constant micro-corrections add up and makes for white knuckles by sunset.  After a day like that it sorta made me a bear.

Then 40-50 feet of trailer  should really white knuckle it.  Especially empty. All that sail area with no weight to stabilize it?  
    Semi's constantly tow like that.  Relatively speaking the truck portion is much shorter than the trailer and massively less weight. 

frenchyd said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

dannyp84 said:

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

I think this is what's actually weighing on my mind, I think the Montero can do the job, but it will likely not be enjoyable. The RX7 is a joy to drive but it's also physically demanding, after a long day at the track I'd like whatever I'm towing with to not be a stressful experience..

Your genius is showing.  There is a huge difference between adequate and really good.

I wouldn't use my Branger to tow that 3500 lbs cross-country.  250 miles to the finger lakes?  No problem.  Down the street to a buddy's house?  Hold my beer, I'll use a Dodge Omni.  I found that out when I full-timed in an RV.  The trailer was 10k gvw, and since I was living in it, it likely was right around that weight.  I towed it with a 95 F250 powerstroke.  By the numbers, more than enough truck, and 80% of the time it was. But I wish I had done a dually to get more rubber on the road.  31 feet of billboard was just fine for short trips, but at the end of a 8-12 hour driving day trying to make time from New Orleans to L.A., the constant micro-corrections add up and makes for white knuckles by sunset.  After a day like that it sorta made me a bear.

Then 40-50 feet of trailer  should really white knuckle it.  Especially empty. All that sail area with no weight to stabilize it?  
    Semi's constantly tow like that.  Relatively speaking the truck portion is much shorter than the trailer and massively less weight. 

It's not that bad in my experience (which is limited in things with 18 wheels).  The real white knuckle part comes from the fact that a bumper-tow places the pivot 4 feet behind the axle so it acts like a lever.  Putting the pin over 8 massive tires in the middle of two axles helps a ton.

I always advise that RVers can buy a 5er based on weight that the tow vehicle can tow, but TTs based on length - regardless of TT weight.  Especially with the proliferation of "ultralite" campers which pack lots of length into not much weight.

frenchyd said:

Then 40-50 feet of trailer  should really white knuckle it.  Especially empty. All that sail area with no weight to stabilize it?  
    Semi's constantly tow like that.  Relatively speaking the truck portion is much shorter than the trailer and massively less weight. 

When unloaded the trailer is lighter than the tractor.  It's also a fifth wheel attachment, which (from what I've read -- never driven one) is much more stable than a bumper pull.

I also suspect that semis rarely go very far unloaded, because you don't make any money doing that.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

So is a car trailer lighter than the tow vehicle.  Yes the 5th wheel attachment helps. However the main reason for the 5th wheel is to transfer load weight to the front axles to scale more load.    
Yes truckers like to Gypsy  back hauls whenever possible, but schedules wait for no man.  In other words a lot of ground is covered returning empty. 

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I find that there are benefits to both.  5ers are typically way more stable because any side loads that the trailer transfers to the vehicle are directly above the axle and therefore have a much smaller effect on moving the vehicle.  With a bumper hitch, the side loads on the hitch act like a 4 (or more) foot breaker bar and amplify the force.

One benefit to bumper pull is that you can use an equalizing hitch to more evenly distribute loads which adds a lot of stability, and also helps with braking.  With a non-equalized load, you're adding weight to the rear axle while taking a bit of weight off the front... but not changing brake bias.  Since many vehicles already have about a 70/30 brake bias, it doesn't help to take weight off the front.  That is one downside to 5ers and goosenecks.  With the hitch over the rear axle, you are adding weight to the back but not really changing the front weight much.  This is a bit better for brake bias, but the downside is... you get what you get.  You can't shift weight (unless you have a sliding hitch platform which doesn't work for many 5ers because the trailer hits the cab in a turn) so the weight you put on the pin is fixed.

I have towed a lot of both.  5ers are wonderfully stable, but not tuneable.  Bumper towing is tuneable, but not as stable.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I think this is the nicest part of the crew cab 5'8" bed GMT800's. The tow hitch reached back its mounting to the frame to directly behind the axe. So not only do you get the stability of the long wheelbase, a fullframe to pull the load but mounting location is better than the longer bed trucks. 

pilotbraden said:

mdshaw said:

You need something like this:

Around my neck o'the woods that is called a vuck

As in a "What The Vuck?"

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

That thing is cool, but all my towing trips will be over 4 hrs one way, and with long-ish legs I don't think I'll be terribly comfy in a van..

Used to live in cumberland and made the I68 drive with loaded moving trucks and with a F150 and trailer...   

From Frostburg down into Cumberland (going eastbound) you will have challenges keeping speed down.  JUST GEAR DOWN AND SAVE YOUR BRAKES.  If your brakes are feeling marginal ANYWHERE around Frostburg before you get to downtown Cumberland (bridges with turns amid buildings) IF YOU CAN STOP TO LET BRAKES COOL, DO IT.  I could smell burning semi brakes from my house almost every day and it was a regular site to see them on fire. 

Just east of Cumberland - you will be tempted to think you are clear and hammer down.  Well, we saw more rolled semis there...   so, again, caution, some of those turns there sneak up on you.

Sidling hill...  You are going to be a SNAIL. Watch your temperature gauge, if anything is marginal in the drivetrain, if its gonna die, that hill will probably do it. We had some autocrossers driving their cars home from events konk out there. Not tow rigs, the car they just autocrossed.  Just stay to the right with your flashers on...  all the semis do it there.  

That basically covers the stretch I would sweat most.  You will be miserable on that stretch. build in plenty of extra time and dont be tempted to try to rush there by going too fast uphill and certainly dont be tempted to do too fast downhill if you have any problems on that front.  

In reply to Apexcarver :

I've been through that section of I68 many times, stopped for lunch once in Cumberland and had a very strange experience with that town. I've noticed that stretch of highway requires a fair bit of care and attention but many drivers aren't aware of that which makes it all the more dangerous. Is sidling hill the one with the overlook/visitor center?

In reply to dannyp84 :

Yup, its a bigger climb than is apparent in a normal car (not moving truck or towing)

Cumberland IS an odd town. I havent lived there in about 10 years now. They have been struggling for many of the reasons I left. Lack of jobs, influx of trouble from the prisons, etc. 

there isnt too much great food that is accessible with a tow rig in that area, but there is a truck stop on Keysers Ridge (liberty station in Accident, MD) that is 24 hours that I would go miles to go to rather than try to digest Denny's food. 

dannyp84 said:

... I finally ordered a steel open deck trailer ... weighs 1551 lbs, to tow my RX7, which is 2200 lbs. ... '91 Montero ...The Montero is rated to tow 4k lbs, but brand new it made something like 140 hp and 160 ft lbs, and that was 220k miles ago. I'm about 45 min southwest of Pittsburgh in WV, and most of the tracks I want to visit involve driving up and down steep grades on I68, to Summit Point and Richmond Raceway, and even going to Englishtown NJ requires conquering a few hills on Pennsylvania's hellish turnpike. 

..., am I underestimating what the Montero might be capable of? ....

There is a lot of discussion here, I did not read through most of it but I can add some personal experience.

I live in central PA, I towed a NA miata to Pittrace on a uhaul trailer with a 1994 v6 4runner manual transmission. If I were to do it again I would rent a pickup or full size van. 

The 4runner was rated 6000lb or so tow rating, the trailer was likely 3000 lbs and the miata should be 2200. The towing turning and stopping was no trouble, the "hills" of PA were problematic but could be overcome. 

On 22 going up Chickaree Mountain (Dishong mt) I was floored in 2nd gear topped out at 27 mph. 4way flashers in the slow lane. Pulled it without overheating, didn't have much trouble slowing down on the descent, but the v6 just couldn't keep up with modern traffic.

The section of turnpike you need to get on as mentioned has some legit grades and turns with little shoulder room. 

The national 55mph era is over when your mitsu was made, its still a great truck but people just don't drive 30mph up hills anymore. 

My recommendation would be to price out renting a F150 or so from uhaul for the 5-10 annual events you plan and see if that total would exceed what you want to spend on a tow rig. Or just tow with the mitsu, take your time, and wave people by. 

Take pictures whatever you decide!

pilotbraden said:

mdshaw said:

You need something like this:

Around my neck o'the woods that is called a vuck

Because "tran" might have some connotations.  Not that there's anything wrong with that 

frenchyd said:

Tom1200 said:

In reply to dannyp84 :

After getting a Van I'm really sold on them. If I didn't have the camper van I'd go with a cargo van with one row of seats added. The prices on vans are still reasonable.

Yuk on Vans.  I've got such short legs I'm tempted to just staple a pair of shoes on my butt cheeks. But after a few hours in a van I want to chew my left leg off.  No place to put it. The wheel well intrudes  where  the leg naturally wants to be.   

You also once said that towing with a dually sucked.  Seeing how that "tran" or "vuck" is both a dually and a van, it'd probably make your head explode.

An update of sorts: Over the weekend as a favor to a friend I drove his '93 full size Blazer (2 door Tahoe after '95) to Annapolis Maryland, and picked up a blown up '09 Volvo S40 on a tow dolly to drag home so he can replace the motor and sell it. The route home was very similar to what I would have to do in order to get to Summit Point or the Spirit drift events in Richmond. Also, the Volvo and dolly were very close in weight to my RX-7 on a full trailer. On the hills of I68, I was down to about 45/50mph by the time I reached the top, with my foot pretty well buried in the accelerator. If it let the truck kick down into 2nd it would accelerate harder up the hill, but I didn't feel it was necessary to work the engine that hard since traffic was fairly light and no one was getting held up behind me. Going back down the hills required gentle steering inputs and plenty of room to brake if necessary. 

The 2 door Blazer feels like an awfully short wheelbase for towing, but it's still 5" longer than the Montero, and the suspension feels stiffer/more stable. Also, if the 5.7 is healthy, it makes around 300 ft/lbs vs the Montero's 170. I think those hills with the same load would've had me down to 20 mph or less in the Mitsubishi, with less confidence to carry speed downhill, and probably less stability in general. So now I'm casually shopping for a tow vehicle, and although I found a cheap 6.5 diesel GMT400 locally, I think I'd be best served by a gas truck/suv, it's just an unfortunate time to be a buyer in that category the way prices have spiked in the last year or so..

I'm also partial to big RWD station wagons as well............I haven't shopped for one in a while but they weren't that sought after so the price may be livable.

I think that towing that load with that truck is just going to be miserable, with slim margins against either mechanical failure or collisions. Your regular duty for it includes some of the hardest grades and tightest corners on the whole Interstate system.

Let me put you somewhere unpleasant. You've been climbing a 4% grade for three miles on a 90 degree day. Someone just cut you off and brake-checked you because 50 MPH really isn't an acceptable freeway speed anymore and the three semis that passed you took forever to do it, so now you're trying to recover from 35 MPH on that same grade. The torque converter has been unlocked the whole way up and dumping five space-heaters' worth of heat into your right leg, the engine's screaming away, the catalytic converter's ten degrees away from melting the tar off the floorpan because the computer has set the mixture to full enrichment, the air conditioner has disengaged because the throttle's wide open, and now you're looking down at the road and worrying whether your temperature gauge has started moving up.

Let's go somewhere worse next. You're descending another grade like this, in 3rd at 55 MPH. After a few applications, the trailer brakes are hot and starting to go away. You move the lever back to 2nd and discover that you're going a little too fast for the transmission to allow that shift. Now you're doing 60 past a sign that says "trucks use lower gear" and matters  just aren't improving. Will the brakes return after a few hair-raising minutes, or is the fluid now opaque and ruined? Does putting the windows down give you enough extra drag to help, or is it just helping to evaporate the sweat?

The car and trailer make a 4000# load, the tow vehicle will weigh at least 4000#, so to at least make the grades and come down them with something in reserve I'd want 265 horsepower to have 1 hp for every 30#.  A TrailBlazer with the Atlas 4200 will do it competently, a Tahoe with a 5.3 will be unstressed.  

In reply to chaparral :

There are no torque converters in my fleet, but otherwise point well-taken. I wonder if I should make a new thread asking for everyone's top 5 favorite tow vehicles under $10k..

In reply to dannyp84 :

I would say GMT 800 suburban. I have a GMT400 and would really like the extra engine and chassis upgrade of the 800. Plus these days there is almost a cost inversion of the two.

Just re-read the OP where he specified that his Montero was manual. At least that gets rid of the unlocked-torque-converter issues, and there'll be a bit more engine braking available when you change down to "300 rpm below rod-through-the-block", but this is still going to be a slow, tiring ride with occasional moments of fear. 

You mention not being excited about maintaining a vehicle that's only used a few times a year, which I agree with. But! I missed one thing - why not sell the Montero and get something to replace it that tows better? A 1991 Montero gets about 15mpg, seems like a more modern Suburban could best that while also having 300hp and towing a thousand times better. The longer wheelbase would be more comfortable and handle the trailer side loads way better. Maintenance isn't going to be a ton more, 1991 Mitsubishis aren't exactly maintenance free. It might not be as cool, but the race car on the trailer handles that for you.

If you don't need 4wd, a cool option might be the police pursuit package Tahoe. They're short wheelbase, but pretty dang cool looking being lowered with fat tires and handle well with massive swaybars. I've seen them around $8k at auctions in good shape.