Race seats and rollbars on the street safety?

So I have seen a few posts over on miata.net by a guy who very strongly evangelizes how dangerous a roll bar is because stock seats with fold over if you get rear ended which is much more likely than rolling your car.

So out of curiosity I started doing research and found out the aluminum seats like ultrashield and kirkey etc actually have to be braced or the same thing is true?

Once you take in the cost of a brace is an FIA approved seat that does NOT need a brace end up being a better choice?

And what about HANS does anyone use one for anything less than wheel to wheel?

I'm of the opinion that unless the seat needs to be able to be adjusted for taller and shorter drivers it should be braced. Braces aren't that expensive either. I think of a seat as a large lever, so I prefer more contact points over fewer.

Many guys I hillclimb with wear HANS setups. I myself wear a similar setup meant for Kart racing, which allows for a little more head movement.

The missus may be putting an end to that though, so I have to choose between the HANS and Simpson's Hybrid Rage doohickey.

FWIW, most of those ideas about the danger of mixing street and track safety systems were summarized by Jack Baruth in this column. I have no idea as to the validity of his claims.

I plan on putting a bar in my datsun replica, and it will be street driven most of the time.

Even with adjustable seats, you can still have a back brace, it just needs to be adjustable as well. There are a few on the market, but no experiences with them myself. I have a Kirkey seat in my Camaro and before the back brace the seat would move a bit, probably a lot in an accident. Once braced properly it is quite solid.

Jack Baruths column does bring up some good points. A roll bar on the street without a helmet can be harmful to the driver/passenger in an accident. Just some things to think about before putting a bar in.

I knew about the seat belt thing. Lots of guys swap out the miata steering wheels for ones without airbags too. In fact I don't think mine even though stock has the airbag hooked up anymore. And I know it doesn't have ABS.

I would not look to wear harnesses on the street for that reason.

I am assuming you can't brace stock miata seats?

I plan on padding the bar and hopefully adjusting the seats to keep peoples head away from them. For any kind of dual purpose car you sort of don't have a choice. Bolting in a roll bar is still a big job and its required on the track

The IOport brace is adjustable but it adds to the cost of everything else. Its 100 bucks+ by itself so by that point could you not just get an FIA approved seat by the time you buy that and a kirkey/ultrashield?

JoeyM wrote: FWIW, most of those ideas about the danger of mixing street and track safety systems were summarized by Jack Baruth in this column. I have no idea as to the validity of his claims. I plan on putting a bar in my datsun replica, and it will be street driven most of the time.

That was interesting and good to think about when doing a dual duty car.

I've read the whole 'if you put a roll bay in a street car you will die' thing many many times. I disagree. Pad it properly and I believe it's fine. Look at the hundreds of thousands of Jeep Wranglers out there with factory roll bars covered in soft padding (not SFI stuff). There has to be thousands more Jeeps out there than Miata's with roll bars. Don't you think if it was so dangerous we'd have seen exposes on 60 minutes, class actions law suits and quadriplegics(caused by hitting their heads in Jeeps) demanding action in from of congress by now?

dual density foam is good

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I've read the whole 'if you put a roll bay in a street car you will die' thing many many times. I disagree. Pad it properly and I believe it's fine. Look at the hundreds of thousands of Jeep Wranglers out there with factory roll bars covered in soft padding (not SFI stuff). There has to be thousands more Jeeps out there than Miata's with roll bars. Don't you think if it was so dangerous we'd have seen exposes on 60 minutes, class actions law suits and quadriplegics(caused by hitting their heads in Jeeps) demanding action in from of congress by now?

The one part of that I consider as well is that rollbars usually have diagonals or braces behind the seats while the ones on Jeeps tend to be more of a perimeter cage. That is why I was asking about the seat bracing etc. If you get rear ended in a jeep none of that cage is behind you?

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Interesting point. Seems like Jeeps have a ton of headroom (or do they? I've only ever ridden in one or two, and don't really recall), and while they probably are more likely to get upside down than Miatas when used for their actual intended purpose, it's also likely to be at much lower speeds.

This thread is about a Miata (or started that way), and with a bar as opposed to a cage. It seems like this sort of thing might be very case-by-case... I'm hoping that I can make sense of putting a cage in my street-driven 2002, but the fact that it has a greenhouse that's more like a warehouse makes that seem like it'll be possible to keep people's noggins much further from the cage than you could possibly be in a Miata or other smaller, lower-roofed cars.

I'd also love a more specific description of what aspects are problematic. The door frame of any hardtop car isn't exactly forgiving. Is it safer because it's not a protrusion the way a tube is? If I put a sub-ceiling into the 2002 running between the halo tubes so that I had a more normal roof profile, just a couple of inches lower than the original, how would that be as compared to any normal car with a less cavernous cab than the little bimmer?

There was an article on safety equipment (strictly track context) in GRM years ago, and I vividly recall part of it talking about where to put padding on the bars, and the key phrase was something like "during a crash, you cannot imagine what parts of the interior you will be able to touch."

Yeah I am specifically curious about the topic as it pertains to my new to me Miata but also in general.

On to Adrians point though you would have tons more people talking about the issue if it was a common occurrence, then again rolling your car is not a common occurrence either

That's really the crux... I'd love to see under what circumstances which parts are problematic, and whether there are ways to mitigate each.

As far as actual rollovers go, I'd think bars would usually do more good than harm.

But... the side of a halo would be pretty close to your unhelmeted head when driving a caged Miata on the street, and I'd think that something like getting T-boned or sliding sideways into a curb/wall/tree/stegosaurus would bounce your head off of it pretty good (er, bad)...

Just from personal experience, a buddy of mine had a 84 or 85 Toyota "Hi-Lux" 4x4 with the solid front axle. Lifted, 44s, and a roll cage in the cab and in the bed. In the cabin was 2 bars running through the middle, like a T-Top car. Even with the foam pipe wrap, I would hurt my head going over the smallest of bumps because it was that tight in there. Now, imagine if we rolled it without helmets on? I would think a properly designed cage could benefit both on and off track for crash safety if you take into consideration the space your head will fling in an accident, God forbid you should be in one.

Edit: Typo fixins.

Driving is a risk, and even without cages, etc, there is a risk of death at the speeds we typically travel at, even with all things being mitigated to our satisfaction. Baruth's column (and I always take his stuff with a grain of salt) is a big "what if" piece and you can "what if" it right into having a city bus roll over you and crush your car flat with you in it, or a truck behind you rear end you flat into the truck ahead of you.

If your dual purpose car requires a roll cage, put it in, pad it, and do your best not to hit anything or let yourself get hit. Just like always.

I've had a couple cars with cages, and put 8 years of street driving between the two of them with nary a bump to the noggin. It CAN be done, just like your car making it through life with no more than a scratch to the bumper. (in 30+ years of driving a scratch to the bumper and broken taillight are the worst I've damaged a car in accidents). If you're already the kind of person that tends to have people hit them or hits other things, then yeah, you might not want to put a cage in your street car... ;)

Chris_V wrote: Baruth's column (and I always take his stuff with a grain of salt)

good plan

I have a customer who wrecked his full caged Camaro and didn't have any issues with rollbar hitting.

Yes, I know, the plural of anecdote is not data, but you won't die screaming in a fender-bender. Anything hard enough for the cage to be a liability will ruin your day.

IMO, the bigger issue is that caged cars are a PITA to get in and out of, and first responders WON'T be expecting them. Saw the pillars? Hell, in a properly made cage, you'll be sawing for a very long time to get through a pillar.

JoeyM wrote:

Chris_V wrote: Baruth's column (and I always take his stuff with a grain of salt)

good plan

Given what I know of his accident history, I'll trust what he says about safety.

None of it contradicts anything I've ever heard from other sources, either. Hell, the trackdays I've been to require helmets, but you are NOT allowed to wear a harness unless your car has a cage. No cage = stock 3-point.

I met a fellow in NY near Watkins Glen who daily drives a Miata with a full cage, race seat and harness. He's not some young kid either - I'm guessing well into his 50's (some of you familiar with the Vintage Festival organiziation may even know this person). I casually asked him about the street-safety aspect. He looked at me, shrugged and said, "yep..." If you understand the risks, you pays your money and takes your chances.

Ian F wrote: If you understand the risks, you pays your money and takes your chances.

At some point, that's the bottom line. You can't remove all the risk, and you can hurt yourself twiddling your thumbs raw while you ponder it.

But calculated risk involves calculation, and I feel like this topic usually gets boiled down to either "don't" or "do, and recognize the risks" without ever heading toward "how can we make a cage safer for daily driving?".

Anyhow, I'll keep pondering it, and let you guys know if I figure anything out

Jaynen wrote: I knew about the seat belt thing. Lots of guys swap out the miata steering wheels for ones without airbags too. In fact I don't think mine even though stock has the airbag hooked up anymore. And I know it doesn't have ABS.

I purchased one with the stock wheel replaced just so I wouldn't have to disable another one for my wife to drive it. @ 5'2" she sits REALLY close to a steering wheel and the idea of an airbag deploying that close to her scares the hell out of me. Add to the fact that I've never had an airbag deploy on me even in nasty accidents, I have little faith in their ability to work correctly.

It just seems to me that the specs seem to put the rollbars too close to the occupant. Given the room I'd love to put them further behind the driver than allowed just for this issue. The jeep has them much further away than most specs allow.

Having run a Miata with a Hard dog on the street I can say that even with padding your head will touch hard enough to hurt on a bumpy street so if you had a real accident I'd be worried you could do more damage than good.

BUT I can't see a roll bar being a bad thing in a rollover as someone else said earlier.

How many times have you been rear ended on the street?
How many times have you rolled a car on the street?
How many times have you been off track in a street car?

For me the answers are:
1
Almost, but not quite once (the lamp post 'saved' me)
eerrr probably 6-8 with no contact.

My next 'toy' car will have a (padded) rear roll hoops with diagonal and both stock belts and harnesses. I'll take my chances.

I wouldn't run a roll cage in a street car. No reason to and why risk hitting the main hoop with your un helmeted head?

Certain cars the main hoop will be far enough away that hitting it would be difficult, on others it'd be right in front of you, like my 944 for instance.

I have a roll bar in that car with fixed back seats, I'm comfortable driving it on the street...

At some point, that's the bottom line. ...But calculated risk involves calculation, and I feel like this topic usually gets boiled down to either "*don't*" or "*do, and recognize the risks*" without ever heading toward "*how can we make a cage saf**er** for daily driving?*".

Agreed.

Reality says some race cars WILL see street use from time to time.

There is no "end all be all solution", but that doesn't mean we can't minimize the risks associated with the task.

I am one that occasionally drives a car with full race seats and cage on the street. I recognize the risk, and make that choice.

Risks are measurable, and can be mitigated. Outcomes are predictable. "Accidents" are foreseeable.

Well besides the fact I always wear a helmet and full gear on a bike, driving the car with a rollbar in it still has to be safer. I understand its the same question of managing risk.

Happy to say after selling the bike actually the miata gives me a lot of the same feelings