seat belt question for autocrossing with OE 3-point belt

maschinenbau said:

Can you mount the retractor higher up on the B-pillar? It doesn't have to be in the same spot as the lower lap belt anchor. This might give you enough slack so it doesn't engage the locking mechanism.

that is a great idea! But for this particular belt length, the retractor would interfere with the window crank in its six o'clock position.

Pictures would go a long way here. You may be smarter than me

I'm not

but personally I wouldn't be opening up and tinkering with seat belt mechanisms. 

there are three completely separate mechanisms. I'm talking only about what I will call the length ratchet, which is used to set belt length for securing a child seat. The length ratchet is nylon planetary gear set with a very small diameter wire spring. Because the length ratchet is independent of the inertia safety and the level safety, those safety mechanisms are still 100% functional. 

Regarding safety rules, if you are worried about passing tech, you could always have both sets of belts installed.

I'm not worried about passing tech. I'm triggered by being told what's up by people who don't know what's up.

Good suggestions, thanks for the input.

Rules aside, I think you'd be fine.  I used to recline my seat a little, then jerk the belt hard to engage the lock then raise the seat back up to push me against the locked belt. 
 

all that said, a good seat will hold you in super tight, even doing a pretty good job under braking.

as far as the rules go, strict interpretation might say harness time but I definitely think you're within the spirit of the rules. 

AC, who's driving?  If it were me, I prefer the feel of a full harness over a three point one, as getting tighter with the car helps feel the car better. 
 

And avoid the distraction of the belts moving, if they do. 
 

That being said, there used to be a binder for 3 pt harnesses, I just can't recall what it is called. It's put down by the buckle where the points all came together to constrain the webbing. 

alfadriver said:

AC, who's driving?  If it were me, I prefer the feel of a full harness over a three point one, as getting tighter with the car helps feel the car better. 

No doubt.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Ya know, you do you. With the attitude you're displaying your username is definitely coming out now. No point in trying to even discuss this apparently. Have fun with that. 

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

CG lock is it. https://store.racerdirect.net/cg-lock-racing-harness-seat-belt-control-for-3-point-lap-belts-cg-lock-seatbelt.html
 

and I also recall being able to get a torso strap for a closed car or an open one with a roll bar. To avoid getting a 5 pt harness. 

bobzilla said:

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Ya know, you do you. With the attitude you're displaying your username is definitely coming out now. No point in trying to even discuss this apparently. Have fun with that. 

LOL.  you made claims.  i asked you to substantiate.  you respond with insult.  thanks for the Cool Hand Luke video.  I don't like it any more than you men.

I guess I just don't get glossing over the fact that the cars built about a year after yours are the ones that came with 3 point belts.

If yours didn't have the option from the factory, its not OEM, right?

I also second the statement that I don't wanna see the car not pass tech cause of a faulty interpretation of a rule, regardless of whether the fault is on the tech inspector or you.

Mr_Asa said:

I guess I just don't get glossing over the fact that the cars built about a year after yours are the ones that came with 3 point belts.

If yours didn't have the option from the factory, its not OEM, right?

With the Challenge treatment of "OE frame rails" and other OE parts, it seems that moving them from one car to another is not an issue.  So why would it be an issue to move from one model year to the next, when the only change is to drill a hole and add a weld nut?

Would it be OK to transplant the roof from a '66-up onto my '65 body?  if not, why not?

I asked Tom to review this thread and provide GRM official position.

I also second the statement that I don't wanna see the car not pass tech cause of a faulty interpretation of a rule, regardless of whether the fault is on the tech inspector or you.

I would 100% roll the dice on passing tech.  Like i said, i asked Tom to review this thread and provide official GRM position.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

With the Challenge treatment of "OE frame rails" and other OE parts, it seems that moving them from one car to another is not an issue.  So why would it be an issue to move from one model year to the next, when the only change is to drill a hole and add a weld nut?

Would it be OK to transplant the roof from a '66-up onto my '65 body?  if not, why not?

Ok, that I can get behind. Concern withdrawn here

Mr_Asa said:

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

With the Challenge treatment of "OE frame rails" and other OE parts, it seems that moving them from one car to another is not an issue.  So why would it be an issue to move from one model year to the next, when the only change is to drill a hole and add a weld nut?

Would it be OK to transplant the roof from a '66-up onto my '65 body?  if not, why not?

Ok, that I can get behind. Concern withdrawn here

"oh, we've already established that you are.  now we're talking price."

that's the punch line to an old joke that goes something like:

"hey baby, would you blow me for $10k?"

"sure"

"cool, how about for $10?"

"i am not a whore!"

the point of that interlude is to ask "OK, how about if i transplant only the shoulder belt anchor plate?"

insert smiley so i'm not falsely accused of being, well, you know.

Why not go back to the junkyard and find a belt assembly that's in between sizes? 

The minivan one has to be just about the longest available.  Measure how much you'd need to remove and then head to the yard with a tape measure.

TVR Scott said:

Why not go back to the junkyard and find a belt assembly that's in between sizes? 

The minivan one has to be just about the longest available.  Measure how much you'd need to remove and then head to the yard with a tape measure.

I got the minivan one *because* it's the longest. And the length ratchet feature isn't required, but it's a "nice to have." Same thing can be achieved by loading against the inertia reel, so it'll definitely work as-is.

The $2000 Challenge Rules say:

Every entry is required to have a seat belt or harness for the driver. OEM three-point seat belts may be retained. If the OEM belt is not three-point, or if the driver’s seating position has been modified significantly, then a racing harness is required. Racing harnesses must have a minimum of five points, and may be no more than two years old. Older harnesses that have been professionally re-webbed, inspected and re-certified within the previous two years are acceptable.

Reading through this thread, your Corvair doesn't have an OEM three-point seat belt to retain. To meet the rules, you'll need a properly installed racing harness.

If there were clear norms and guidelines in the racing world for repurposing 3-point belts safely, then there would be a legal way to do so. But, sadly, there aren't, and there are too many variables involved. Hence the requirement for a properly installed harness as soon as you don't have an OEM belt for the car.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Understood.

Today I received an anonymous Amazon package addressed to "Hand Model":

and I appreciate it.

Man, I have been thinking about this since the challenge...

I'm still unsure how to mount the harness in your car.  A harness bar would need to be remove able in order to get the engine cover off.  AND the front edge of the engine cover is like exactly where you would want the harness bar.

I'm curious to see how you solve this.  (Probably with welded in nuts in the unibody...  seems familiar).

Edit...  can you make the top front edge piece of the engine enclosure structural?  Like replace it with a bit of 1.5" square tubing going the full width behind the seats?  If so, you could "clip" the shoulder straps to that and then bobs your uncle.

Crappy photoshop incoming....

For better or worse, if the belts go through the hole in the seat, the bar should be in line with the hole so the belts break over the shoulder and over/wrapped on the bar without touching the seat. Typically a 0-10* angle off the shoulders. 
 

A removable harness bar would be very plausible, and maybe angry could do a 4-point roll bar at the same time??

In reply to wvumtnbkr and jfryjfry :

my current vision is to run a harness bar connecting the bottoms of the C pillars, just a hair lower than the bottom edge of rear glass.  it would be above the permanent part of the engine box.  just need to know whether or not standard shoulder belts will be long enough to reach that far back.

How far back is it?  In my experience, the shoulder belts are always crazy long.

Could you do a combined shock-tower brace and harness bar?  Go straight across behind the seats and then vee back to each shock-tower from the middle.

This would support the middle, where it seems like every-harness-bar-ever crumples from the bending load.  And give a bit of chassis stiffness.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to wvumtnbkr and jfryjfry :

my current vision is to run a harness bar connecting the bottoms of the C pillars, just a hair lower than the bottom edge of rear glass.  it would be above the permanent part of the engine box.  just need to know whether or not standard shoulder belts will be long enough to reach that far back.

I like that approach and I think they'll be long enough. Many installs go over a bar or something and then bolt into the rear seat lap seatbelt receptacles. 

Also means you can leave them installed and roll them up and use your three point for running errands if you prefer.

TVR Scott said:

Could you do a combined shock-tower brace and harness bar?  Go straight across behind the seats and then vee back to each shock-tower from the middle.

This would support the middle, where it seems like every-harness-bar-ever crumples from the bending load.  And give a bit of chassis stiffness.

I like the way you're thinking, and that would work if the engine box was permanent like in a typical mid-engine car.

MonZora engine box / firewall is disassemble-able for engine service, so I am loathe to add permanent elements which would interfere with that.

also, there are no strut towers in Corvair body. Rear suspension is SLA, with transverse leaf below LCAs, and dampers attach to chassis behind UCAs. Base of C pillar is main node of Corvair rear unibody, as that is closest to where Corvair spring loads react into structure.

I will figure out an elegant way to react / distribute forward forces of shoulder belts into the rear bulkhead.

In reply to wvumtnbkr and Robbie :

OTTOMH, it's about 48" from back of front seat to rear bulkhead.