So Long to My BRZ

So after much debate and a year and a half I sent my BRZ on to a new owner. In my ownership there was both good and bad, so I'd thought I'd write a quick cliff notes review.

The Good: It feels like a race car. The steering is great, almost Porsche-like, and everyone looks composed driving it. Turn in is good, cornering grip is also very good, even on the low grip Prius tires, and brakes are better than average. I also happen to like the way it looks. All in all, every trip was an adventure unto itself. I know I am going to miss the way it drives.

The not so good: It feels like a race car. By that I mean it punishes you for enjoying it. The seats are among the worst of any car I've ever had. The ride equally so. My back is admittedly not great, so that doesn't help, but after owning BMWs, Porsches, and even the 370Z and MR2s, there are much better options in seating, and certainly shock valving.

I believe most of the ride issue on the BRZ centers on the poor shocks. I had plans for Konis but instead have been buying parts for the Miata. I'd like to think they would help. Even without the back issues, when pressed hard, the shocks lose their composure, especially at the rear where it seems the rebound turns to mush. Like many companies, they dial in a bunch of compression to give it a sportier feel I believe. And I know its a cheaper car, but I'd like to see a bit better materials in areas, especially on the interior. And then there's the power debate. Some say it has enough, some complain, but in the end it needs more, period. When you have trouble staying up with mini vans and SUVs, you have a problem. See in hole in traffic, and the woman in the CRV with 4 scream kids easily beats you too it, while the kid in the back laughs at you for just making noise and not going anywhere! It needs more power.

In the end, I started to dread every trip in it as I knew I would be in pain for a day or two afterwards. It is the only car I have ever had or driven where this is the case. I know at 53 I am definitely not in the target age group for this car, but...

Suggestions: Subaru should really offer a better seating option for this car. I would have paid for a better seat and I would bet many other customers would too. Not a single person that rode it in liked the seats, and most verbally complained. My wife refused to ride it after just a few times in the car.

The aforementioned power. At least offer it with the same engine configuration at the WRX, its the same block. My wife's RAV4 blew it into the weeds in an impromptu drag race a few weeks ago, it wasn't even close. You can go on and on about how it was built to go around corners, but if everyone beats you to the corner, how will you know?

I'm torn on shocks. They are easily replaceable, but a sort of the suspension would yield big dividends. Dan Gurney has Toyota ties, bring him out of retirement and let him work on it.

Conclusion: If it were only a toy and you used it to autocross or track days, I wouldn't be nearly as hard on it, but as a daily driver, it fails. Now if I were 25 things might be different. That said, my 20 year old nephew said many of the same things I said here, so who knows.

What you have is a good car in many ways, but with a few tweaks to the formula, Subaru and Toyota could have a fantastic car. I'm glad they make it, but it also makes me sad that it is so underdeveloped at the same time.

So Toyota should drop the rav4 motor into it

I like the seats in my Limited. I've got Ground Control coilovers with 375/425 rates, it would ride better if I raised it back up, or put shorter springs on the rear. Big bumps and getting it loaded up in the corners put it on the bumpstops and they are harsh.

I've also got 18x9.5 RPF1s with 255/35 Star Specs so the car produces ridiculous grip.

I've got the stuff to make it track-ready, but I've been hesistating for months to put it on, since it's my DD.

I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with the power if I'd put on the crazy expensive ACE header and run E85 all the time.....that kills the tq dip and adds about 35whp up top.

It's also easy to get approx 100lbs out of the car without hurting it's "dailyability" but I just don't know if I want to drop more money in the car.

And the absolute terrible resale value on these is why I likely haven't already gotten rid of it.

Dang. Are the seats any different than an FR-S? Because they are some of the best damn seats I've ever sat in.

The power. Probably the reason I didn't end up buying one. The funny thing is that I had the same issue with the Miata, but it didn't bother me at all in the Miata. Probably the delivery. You keep hoping that it is going to kick in, but it just hits redline with a mighty blah.

I would hardly judge speed against an RAV4.. those things are quick

mad_machine wrote: I would hardly judge speed against an RAV4.. those things are quick

It's pretty slow against anything, well maybe not a Fiat 500, but most cars or trucks. When it finally hits the upper part of the rev range it sort of takes off, but until you get there, it does nothing. On track where you could keep it in the power band I'm sure its better, but in day to day driving its frustrating.

Appleseed wrote: Dang. Are the seats any different than an FR-S? Because they are some of the best damn seats I've ever sat in.

I think they are the same but with different material. There are two options on the Subaru, but the only difference is the Limited has better materials. I find them excruciating. They have no lumbar support to speak of and hard material. Compared to the 370Z that came before it, it had far better seats that still held you in place.

Now one thing I didn't comment on when talking about seats is the driving position. It is about as perfect as you can get in a street car. I loved the driving position. If they could have coupled that with a better seat I might have kept the car. Like I said, this is the only car I've ever had where the problem has been this bad. I fully admit my back problems attributed to the issues, but most cars I can find a position that will work.

I love the seats in my FR-S. This car has become my favorite of the cars I've owned, finally besting my beloved '85 MR2. Could it use more power? Sure, but it doesn't take away from my driving enjoyment. The way most people drive I pass Corvettes in my 87 4Runner (which is REALLY slow)!!

The cars superpower is that it weights only 2700 lbs. With that specification, you get to enjoy a driving experience that its more powerful peers can not hope to emulate. The competition might be faster when you get into the pedal, but compared to the FRS, they feel like lard when you turn the wheel.

I like the seats. Done as much as 1300 miles in a day and survived.

Hate the engine. How stupid is a flat four that needs four cams two heads and a mile of cam timing management. Looks like E36 M3 and sounds like a gas golf cart when idling. Only thing I like about the enigne is the oil filter is easy to change. Filling it with $70 of 0-20 weight synthetic and a $20 oil filter from Toyota sucks.

At $0.80/gallon extra for premium in Canada, this will be the last car I buy that does not run on 87 octane.

You like the sound of crickets? Gotz em. Does it get picked on in the schoolyard by every civic and minivan? Yup.

What captures me is driving it. The handling is something that I can appreciate all the time it is moving, not only when you are breaking the law. I keep cars for ten years, six to go.

My buddy has one. I wanted to like it, but the engine killed it for me. I'd love to get my hands on one with a well done LS1 swap.

NOHOME wrote: The cars superpower is that it weights only 2700 lbs.

Sigh

The ND Miata has a worse power to weight ratio than the BRZ, but a better torque to weight ratio. By all accounts, the ND Miata feels more powerful and faster than the FRS/BRZ, and is technically quicker as well. So when people say that the FRS/BRZ needs more power, they really mean it needs more torque...Well, that and to not have a dead spot in the rather important on the street 3200 to 4500 rpm range.

NOHOME wrote: The cars superpower is that it weights only 2700 lbs. With that specification, you get to enjoy a driving experience that its more powerful peers can not hope to emulate. The competition might be faster when you get into the pedal, but compared to the FRS, they feel like lard when you turn the wheel.

I guess 2700 lbs is light by modern standards, but what I never understood about the these cars is why an E30 325i feels quicker. Weight is roughly the same, power is much lower, but I never really had the feeling the E30 was weak. My 318is with a turbo puts out similar power numbers an maybe a little more torque, but it feels like a rocket compared to a BRZ. What makes the difference? I haven't been able to figure it out.

gearheadE30 wrote:

NOHOME wrote: The cars superpower is that it weights only 2700 lbs. With that specification, you get to enjoy a driving experience that its more powerful peers can not hope to emulate. The competition might be faster when you get into the pedal, but compared to the FRS, they feel like lard when you turn the wheel.

I guess 2700 lbs is light by modern standards, but what I never understood about the these cars is why an E30 325i feels quicker. Weight is roughly the same, power is much lower, but I never really had the feeling the E30 was weak. My 318is with a turbo puts out similar power numbers an maybe a little more torque, but it feels like a rocket compared to a BRZ. What makes the difference? I haven't been able to figure it out.

I6 makes more torque and more under the peak. You really have to keep the BRZ wound up.

If you really keep it up above 5k it's quick enough, but even in 2nd gear that means 45mph or so.

your 318is also keeps you sitting upright instead of slightly reclined, and is a "noisier" car as far as NVH goes.. so it may not be any faster, but it will "feel" faster. It's like going 80mph in an old VW bug or 120 in a 911.. which feels like you are going faster?

Driven5 wrote: The ND Miata has a worse power to weight ratio than the BRZ, but a better torque to weight ratio. By all accounts, the ND Miata feels more powerful and faster than the FRS/BRZ, and is technically quicker as well. So when people say that the FRS/BRZ needs more power, they really mean it needs more torque...Well, that and to not have a dead spot in the rather important on the street 3200 to 4500 rpm range.

The Miata has always played in its own sandbox and hence it does not get picked on. It was targeted to a specific market, and that market loves it; the more so since there is no other option.

That left Subaru/Toyota with the shotgun marketing approach where they had to try and sell the car to everyone. The FRS/BRZ tries to be all things to too many people, and as such gets feedback (criticism) from a larger audience who has more choices to compare with.

Toyobarus marketing strategy seems to be one of "Nots":

We are not a Miata

We are not a muscle car

We are not a cheap car

We are not an expensive car

We are not a family car

We are not an economy car

We are not a chick car

We are not a young mans car

We are not an old mans car

We are not a Grand touring car

We are not a commuter car

We are not a race car

People who buy them seem to think:

"I wanted a race car"

Have you driven an S2000 for comparison? I would be curious to see how similar they are in the low-mid range, however I would have to think the S2k has more excitement in the top end.

I keep my eye on these in the used market and find them pretty affordable as a second car, but the lack of torque kind of kills it for me as I would want a second car to provide a little more excitement than it appears this does.

CobraSpdRH wrote: Have you driven an S2000 for comparison? I would be curious to see how similar they are in the low-mid range, however I would have to think the S2k has more excitement in the top end. I keep my eye on these in the used market and find them pretty affordable as a second car, but the lack of torque kind of kills it for me as I would want a second car to provide a little more excitement than it appears this does.

It is very similar to an S2000 below ~5k RPM. But the S2000 has that top end that makes it oh so intoxicating.

CobraSpdRH wrote: Have you driven an S2000 for comparison? I would be curious to see how similar they are in the low-mid range, however I would have to think the S2k has more excitement in the top end. I keep my eye on these in the used market and find them pretty affordable as a second car, but the lack of torque kind of kills it for me as I would want a second car to provide a little more excitement than it appears this does.

Yeah, but the S2000 hits much harder up top. Remember it's got another 2k RPM to play with and another 40hp.And I didn't find it as dead down low as some claim.

My brother has a track-prepped Stalker (LS-powered Lotus 7 thing) and was very impressed by the BRZ/FRSs he drove against. In the straightaways it was no contest, but in the turns he said they really hung in there. (Though to be fair he has a straight axle, hah.)

But yeah, I can always tell when a Subaru is coming down the street, their flat-four sounding like a six-cylinder with two dead spark plugs.

Racerdave600---> What are you pondering to replace the BRZ with?

kb58 wrote: But yeah, I can always tell when a Subaru is coming down the street, their flat-four sounding like a six-cylinder with two dead spark plugs.

The BRZ/FR-S does not have an unequal length header, it's the header, not the engine configuration that gives it the "subie rumble."

The new FA20DIT in the WRX and other models don't have the unequal length header either.

Only the STi is still using the old motor/unequal length setup.

You can however buy aftermarket unequal headers for the BRZ/FR-S to give it that sound.

So 370Z to BRZ to ..?

no RVDP