The Official Challenge Rules Questions Thread

Maybe I missed it, but is there a deadline to register? I see the forms to send in to Rick, but wasn't sure if you needed by such and such date/time.

There's still time, but please send your forms in ASAP.

dankimber wrote: The cheapest rotors for the Camaro at $13 each on rockauto had some funky wave pattern machined in them. Can I get a antiperformance bling credit in my budget? Anyone else going down from the North East?

Yes, our team is. We are hopefully leaving Tuesday Oct. 21st in the morning from MA.

Quick questions:
1. Can someone just pay for and attend the Friday Evening Sonny's dinner at the track? If yes, how much would that be? 2. Is the Parc Expose going to be held at the track Pavillion? Will we be able to leave our cars/trailers at the track on Friday night?

I'm looking forward to seeing everyone at this year's event again. Only two more weeks to go, I hope I can get my car back together in time!!

SVreX wrote:

Circuit_Motorsports wrote:

aussiesmg wrote: Performance improvement = in the budget

Right, but the rules are extremely vague on the whole "replacement brake parts" thing. Just clarifying ;)

Huh??? Looks pretty specific to me:

GRM $20XX Challenge rules said: Brake friction materials, lines, calipers, master cylinders, rotors and drums may be replaced with fresh ones that are functional duplicates. The purpose of this rule is to allow for fresh brake components, not to allow for budget shenanigans. For example, original brake parts cannot be sold and then rebought to take advantage of this allowance.

So you're telling me a set of Hawk Street pads aren't "functional duplicates"?

Basically what I am saying is that it's vague on what is included and excluded from the "free budget". I buy a set of rotors, do they needs to be blanks, can they be drilled, slotted, etc?

Same for pads and Lines, rubber or stainless?

I emailed Rick for clarification about 3 times and never got an answer, so I went ahead and played it safe and got blank rotors and Hawk pads. Found this thread and thought it better to ask, but Now I gotta get stock pads and.....the Hawks sit on a shelf? Just a minor annoyance but it would be a good idea to really clear that up in the rules or answer emails a little more promptly :)

How are hawk pads "stock"

In reply to Circuit_Motorsports:
You are over thinking it.
Another competitor could look at your drilled/slotted rotors and realize they are an upgrade.
How would they know about your pads?

I would guess the "no answer" was a way of saying, "I am not here to say you can and not here to say you can't."

As a fellow competitor, I agree with your choice of fresh blanks and hawks.

I know you think you want clear rules. Remember, this event is in its 15th year and for this year, the rules were pared down.
Historically, every sentence of rules written created a new debate. The rules had grown quite a bit.
For this year, the goal was to get down to one page of rules.
Read that page. Interpret it to the best of your ability and be ready to defend your interpretation and actions. But, most of all, this is a fun event that should not be bogged down by too many rules.
There are so many places you could cheat or lie on the budget that first and foremost your entry becomes a statement of your personal integrity.

Circuit_Motorsports wrote: So you're telling me a set of Hawk Street pads aren't "functional duplicates"?

Yep. Every product Hawk sells has the word "Performance" in the title, including their street pads. You don't believe they are equal either, or you wouldn't feel the need to use them.

Drilled and/ or slotted are also a performance upgrade. Again, you knew this. What you CAN do, if you'd like is to use the stock rotors, and drill and slot them yourself.

If you upgrade a rubber line to a stainless line, you and I both know why you are doing it. Performance upgrade. The solution I have used on this is to use new stock rubber lines and add a ziptie wrapped around them every 1/2".

I don't think you understand the spirit of the event, and I am pretty sure that is why Rick has not responded (or maybe he's just plain busy).

The rules are clear. You are looking for an exception.

And no, the Hawks do not have to sit on the shelf. But you do have to put them in your budget.

JohnRW1621 wrote: You are over thinking it. How would they know about your pads?

John, I love you, but I respectfully disagree.

You are suggesting he lie.

The answer to your question is obvious. It would become apparent he used the Hawks because he would tell everyone.

First he would tell other competitors online. Then he would put them on his budget sheet as "free". Then, he would brag about them in the Concourse.

At which point, GRM should disallow the choice.

If he would like to use the Hawks, they should be in his budget. Period.

Mine were.

And boy, I don't want to open the "debate and interpretation" can of worms but I was focusing on the phrase "functionally duplicate" as it related to brake pads.

This will call for a definition of what the function of a brake pad is.
My feeling is that the function is to create a wear and therefore stop the car. The function further being that the caliper squeezes the pad onto the rotor which stops the car.
I feel that the cheapest pads in the world, the medium pads of the world and the best pads of the world will still exhibit the same function. One pad may be better than the other but I really do not want to try to find the line as to where a cheap pad becomes a medium quality pad because if you are going to grade "the best pads" then you arguably will need to define the point where medium becomes best.

This does not however allow for larger pads like you might get from doing a junkyard big brake upgrade.

With all that written, I am glad to say that no "best pads" are made for the car I am competing with (or so I feel.)

Do you really want me to submit for your approval that I will be there with Beck/Arnley Metal Master semi metallic pads that were $23 for the fronts and $18 for the rears. Personally, I chose to stay with the existing rotors because the looked good. I could have stayed with the pads but they are of unknown origin.

In reply to JohnRW1621:

I don't care one lick about submitting anything for approval.

Performance pads are performance pads.

Your "functional" debate is a lot of hot air. By the same argument I could say that all internal combustion engines serve the same "function".

The clearly understood meaning of the phrase "functional duplicate" as used in the Challenge rules is "don't use upgraded brake parts without putting them in your budget".

It absolutely IS NOT "use anything you want to, as long as it only serves the purpose of stopping the car.

No budget shenanigans. Performance brake parts are performance brake parts. This isn't really that hard.

JohnRW1621 wrote: In reply to Circuit_Motorsports: You are over thinking it. Another competitor could look at your drilled/slotted rotors and realize they are an upgrade. How would they know about your pads? I would guess the "no answer" was a way of saying, "I am not here to say you can and not here to say you can't." As a fellow competitor, I agree with your choice of fresh blanks and hawks. I know you think you want clear rules. Remember, this event is in its 15th year and for this year, the rules were pared down. Historically, every sentence of rules written created a new debate. The rules had grown quite a bit. For this year, the goal was to get down to one page of rules. Read that page. Interpret it to the best of your ability and be ready to defend your interpretation and actions. But, most of all, this is a fun event that should not be bogged down by too many rules. There are so many placed you could cheat or lie on the budget that first and foremost your entry becomes a statement of your personal integrity.

Thanks, you clearly were thinking along the same lines I was.

I did ask because I wanted to be within the rules, I would rather avoid any discrepancies or issues at the event.

SVreX wrote:

Circuit_Motorsports wrote: So you're telling me a set of Hawk Street pads aren't "functional duplicates"?

Yep. Every product Hawk sells has the word "Performance" in the title, including their street pads. You don't believe they are equal either, or you wouldn't feel the need to use them. Drilled and/ or slotted are also a performance upgrade. Again, you knew this. What you CAN do, if you'd like is to use the stock rotors, and drill and slot them yourself. If you upgrade a rubber line to a stainless line, you and I both know why you are doing it. Performance upgrade. The solution I have used on this is to use new stock rubber lines and add a ziptie wrapped around them every 1/2". I don't think you understand the spirit of the event, and I am pretty sure that is why Rick has not responded (or maybe he's just plain busy). The rules are clear. You are looking for an exception. And no, the Hawks do not have to sit on the shelf. But you do have to put them in your budget.

Ya know, you're accusations aren't really necessary or welcome...

I didn't say you were going to lie or cheat, or accuse you of anything.

I said John suggested you lie.

I also said the rule is not in the least bit vague.

So, let me pose it as a question... Since you believe there is no performance advantage to using Hawk pads, slotted rotors, or stainless brake lines, why use them? They cost more. That makes no sense.

If the honest answer is you think they give you a performance advantage, then you were looking for an exception which is not in the spirit of the event.

Sorry if you find this offensive.

SVreX wrote: In reply to JohnRW1621: I don't care one lick about submitting anything for approval. Performance pads are performance pads.

So, do you think my Metal Masters are Performance Pads? Are they too good?

SVreX wrote: Your "functional" debate is a lot of hot air. By the same argument I could say that all internal combustion engines serve the same "function".

I see your point but also see that engines are not expressly allowed to be swapped with "functionally duplicate" without being claimed in budget.

SVreX wrote: The clearly understood meaning of the phrase "functional duplicate" as used in the Challenge rules is "don't use upgraded brake parts without putting them in your budget". It absolutely IS NOT "use anything you want to, as long as it only serves the purpose of stopping the car. No budget shenanigans. Performance brake parts are performance brake parts. This isn't really that hard.

As for "clearly understood..." this here proves that new competitors may not be aware of what you see so clearly. Lets remember to be inviting and inclusive of new competitors so as to grow the business.

Don't know a thing about Metal Masters pads.

I do know what Hawk pads are.

As for "clearly understood..." this here proves that new competitors may not be aware of what you see so clearly. Lets remember to be inviting and inclusive of new competitors so as to grow the business.

Thank you.

If I have a questions then clearly the rules aren't "clear".

either way, looking forward to getting out there, competing and meeting you guys!

SVreX wrote: I said John suggested you lie.

I find comfort in knowing our friendship is greater than any issue this sentence could bring.

For the record, I put the best pads that I felt that I could onto my car that would fit in the stock calipers.
If I could have found what I thought was better, I would have put those on instead, even if they were made by Hawk.
And, I would have felt that I was correct under the rules.

In addition, the rules allow for 4 tires. My car would have been sold new with All-Seasons. I purchased it with mismatched All-Seasons. I will be at the event with 200 treadwear Extreme Performance Summer Tires and I will not count these in my budget (per my reading of the rules.)

In reply to Circuit_Motorsports:

I think you have read a lot into my posts which is not there.

You are hearing a tone, or offense which I do not intend. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

The Challenge is an event that requires a really high level of creativity, and a lot of time, blood, and sweat.

People have brought cars with multiple thousands of hours labor in them. Ever buff rust till it shines?

I have competed since 2004.

There are a lot of crazy things that have been done to win the budget game. Build a race seat our of sheet metal? Seat valves with a belt sander? Buy a lathe so you can machine your own suspension bushings out of leftover bathroom stall panels? Build fender flares out of an old file cabinet?

I was trying to show you there are creative budget friendly solutions to the questions you are asking. Drilling your own rotors is, in fact, an option. Zip-tying brake lines is also a real option in lieu of stainless steel lines (and has been done in the World Rally Cup).

The rules are supposed to discourage you from bolting on performance parts without a hit to the budget.

Better braking is a performance advantage.

But there is nothing stopping you from using anything you want to. Just put it in the budget.

You can put your braking system back to factory specs without a budget hit. That is a safety rule, so people don't build stupid fast cars that can't stop because they couldn't afford a set of pads in their budget.

But if you improve it, budget it.

In reply to Circuit_Motorsports:

For the record, neither JohnRW1621 nor I are "official". You can like or dislike whichever one of our opinions you choose- won't change the official rules.

Tom Suddard, however, is the son of the owner, so I'd say he's pretty official. He answered your question a week ago:

Tom Suddard wrote: Yes. You can't put better pads in for free.

Tom Suddard wrote: Yes. You can't put better pads in for free.

SVreX, Thank you for pointing out Tom's submission that I had not seen on page 5.
Seems that this official word clears up the debate.

Hi, Tom here. Circuit, my title is associate editor–you can trust me.

Everybody, calm down. Paul, John–you're friends. You had a slight disagreement. Please let this be the end of it.

Circuit, it's probably possible to justify Hawk pads as free under the current rules. But don't.

These rules are very stripped down compared to last year's. They accomplish the same things, but with less words and complexity. This approach makes the event more accessible and understandable, but also requires everyone be reasonable. Smokey Yunick wouldn't win the Challenge. He would, however, miss out on the friendship and community that this event is about.

The phrase "the purpose of this rule is to allow for fresh brake components, not to allow for budget shenanigans" is pretty clear, though any good lawyer would pick it apart. Run stock pads–it's just an autocross, anyway. You don't need amazing pads to do it. Or put the Hawks in your budget.

Remember, this is primarily an editorial event. Our goals are great magazine stories, happy competitors, and a community that makes the event a fun, happy place to spend your weekend. Stretching the rules like this doesn't help any of that.

If you have any questions, you can email Rick or me at Tom@GrassrootsMotorsports.com

In reply to F1jim64:

Sorry I was not able to answer sooner, but I have been on vacation in a remote area with no internet access for over a week.

The rules are the same as the $2014 Challenge rules. The spirit of the Last Chance Challenge Class is the story behind how you came to purchase your car at the last minute and get it to the Challenge and participate in each of the events all within the $2014 budget.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

Associate Editor is a much better title! Sorry I butchered it.

Don't worry about John and me. We go back a ways. We are cool- a lot more happens offline than you probably realize.

John is as golden as they come.

I think I will let the "officials" be the officials.

Sidenote on that- not sure if it was by choice, but there has been a cultural shift at GRM recently on rules/ etc. Used to be it was much more open source and hands off. Competitors were encouraged to sort through things like this out on their own, and come to sensible compromises. Tom, you and Rick have taken it in a different direction, and are leaning towards more hands on. Not a problem, but it is different. Perhaps a good thing.

But don't be surprised when some of us old timers revert to the old ways.

See you in a couple of weeks!

cemike2 wrote: Quick questions: 1. Can someone just pay for and attend the Friday Evening Sonny's dinner at the track? If yes, how much would that be? 2. Is the Parc Expose going to be held at the track Pavillion? Will we be able to leave our cars/trailers at the track on Friday night? I'm looking forward to seeing everyone at this year's event again. Only two more weeks to go, I hope I can get my car back together in time!!

We sell tickets to the banquets/food only, email Rick@GrassrootsMotorsports.com for details. I'm sure he can work something out for you.

It will be in or around the pavilion, not sure exactly where. You may leave your cars/trailers at the track.