XJ Lift/Suspension Refresh

Starting this thread to gather my own thoughts as much as anything, but I've also got a few questions to ask and like to solicit comments from the GRM peanut gallery anytime I'm looking to make a "major" purchase of parts anyways, so here goes...

I've had this Cherokee since last fall/summer that serves the role of most-of-the-time-DD/occasional-light-offroading-rig. It sits on the same totally shagged out stock suspension and marginal at best tires that it came with when I bought it and I've always had the idea in mind that at some point I'd be doing a small lift and bigger tires. Well, the slight shimmy (we'll call it a "pre-death wobble") in the front end seems to be getting worse of late, the leaf springs are kinda saggy, the shocks have ZERO damping left at all whatsoever, and the rain this past week has been a poignant reminder of exactly how piss poor the tires are. There may also be some subtle "Jeep envy" going on, as the GF recently bought a new JK Wrangler and hers just looks so big next to mine (wait wut) So I think now is the time for the whole replace/upgrade thing.

Looking to yield about 3" of lift to clear 31x10.5x15 tires and I'm planning to get this done on as GRM of a budget as possible. I've already got a set of JK Rubicon shocks I scored for $40 on CL and a set of S10 Blazer leaf springs to bastard pack the rear. Up front, I'm gonna get some 3" Rusty's HD Coils, an adjustable track bar (probably Rusty's or RE), and also YJ soft lines for the brakes all around for the added length.

So on to the questions:

1) Lower control arms - necessary or no? How likely are the bushings to be contributing to the shimmy in the front end? I'd rather not shell out for new ones right now, but at the same time I'd also hate to pay for another alignment a few months down the road when I find out they should have been replaced in the first place.

2) Planning to do the ZJ tie rod upgrade and wondering if its worth buying one new vs pulling a JY part. Also, do I replace the little dingle rod coming off the pitman arm as well, or just the longer one between the knuckles?

3) Tire recommendations? Looking for an aggressive A/T along the lines of the BFG K02 or the Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac, but hoping there's something we like that's a bit less spendy than those two options. I've looked at Treadwrights in the past, but their pricing seems to have jumped about $25 a tire in the past few months and they now just don't seem like a good enough value to me.

4) Any other "while I'm in there" items I'm not thinking of?

For the front end, parts are cheap. Just replace all of it with new stuff. V8 ZJ tie rod and drag link. Replace the ball joints too (if it's got 100k+ on it and they haven't been done, they're guaranteed to be bad).

Why did my brain go to Jag first (yes, even with the lift part, this is GRM after all)

Cooper A/T3 and Goodyear Wrangler Authority (Wal-Mart specific) are two budget tires I've liked in the past.

That said, IMO the Falken WildPeak A/T3 looks to be the new winner. Apparently there has been a TON of tread and compound changes to it and it's a very modern tire. Buy through discounttiredirect.com

My cousin has been running 35" treadwrights on his Rubicon for a few years, lots of daily driving and some fairly hard off roading he is happy with them. They are noisy, but not bad for the size and tread pattern.

gearheadmb wrote: My cousin has been running 35" treadwrights on his Rubicon for a few years, lots of daily driving and some fairly hard off roading he is happy with them. They are noisy, but not bad for the size and tread pattern.

treadwright is what i was going to say as well. I have had them on 2 of my trucks so far and have never had an issue with them.

BTD wrote: Cooper A/T3 and Goodyear Wrangler Authority (Wal-Mart specific) are two budget tires I've liked in the past. That said, IMO the Falken WildPeak A/T3 looks to be the new winner. Apparently there has been a TON of tread and compound changes to it and it's a very modern tire. Buy through discounttiredirect.com

I just put a set of those Falken's on the Trooper. Initial impressions: They're awesome.

edizzle89 wrote:

gearheadmb wrote: My cousin has been running 35" treadwrights on his Rubicon for a few years, lots of daily driving and some fairly hard off roading he is happy with them. They are noisy, but not bad for the size and tread pattern.

treadwright is what i was going to say as well. I have had them on 2 of my trucks so far and have never had an issue with them.

I've heard nothing but good from anyone who has actually run a set and had kinda decided a few months back when I was window shopping tires that the Guard Dog was probably the ticket for me.

BUT, that's when they were listed at like $125 a pop on their website. Went and checked last week and now they show $150/each for the Guard Dog in 31 10.5 15, which is within spitting distance of the tried and true BFG A/T K02. I figure if I'm going to pay that much I'd rather just pony up the extra couple bucks for the BFG/Goodyears.

Tom Suddard wrote:

BTD wrote: Cooper A/T3 and Goodyear Wrangler Authority (Wal-Mart specific) are two budget tires I've liked in the past. That said, IMO the Falken WildPeak A/T3 looks to be the new winner. Apparently there has been a TON of tread and compound changes to it and it's a very modern tire. Buy through discounttiredirect.com

I just put a set of those Falken's on the Trooper. Initial impressions: They're awesome.

Nice, I'll be sure to check out the Falkens, those weren't on my radar previously.

I almost pulled the trigger on a set of the Coopers like a month back, even though I wasn't planning on needing them at the time, just because they were like <$350 a set on DTD with all the available rebates. REALLY kicking myself in the ass for that now...

Most everything I could tell you is in my Moby thread.

I'd go with new leaves instead of bastardizing a pack together. OE replacements and even HD Replacements are <$90 a piece, and are the correct rates, with new bushings. Decent lift springs aren't much more, and are going to give you a more "betterer" rate, with new bushings, and no need to disassemble-reassemble-mount-remove-disassemble-reassemble-mount-remove-rinse-repeat.

I've done V8 ZJ steering on one XJ and Rusty's HD steering on another XJ, if I had it to do over I'd not spend money on the Rusty's, and do the V8 ZJ steering instead. Brand new everything Moog from Amazon was reasonable.

Three inches? Yes do lower control arms, I'd do adjustable uppers too. Do control arm bushings on the axle too. If you've got all the steering off, and the vehicle lifted/supported by the "frame" rails, you'll have plenty of room to access the front upper control arm bushings. It sucks, you'll cuss, but do it now while it's easier. I've gotten to where (at least had gotten to where) I could remove and replace a Clevite D30 control arm bushing in <30 minutes. That's after I got access to it of course.

I installed the RE 3.5" Super Ride lift with full replacement leaves, plus adjustable upper control arms, RE adjustable trackbar, and JK shocks. I went with the kit to have springs designed to work together. So far I'm pleased. I drove it quite a bit yesterday, it'd cost more, but I'm having thoughts of ditching the free JK shocks, and going to some Bilstein 5100, I feel like the Jeep is a little too "floaty," maybe Rubicon shocks instead of sport/Sahara shocks would be better.

I did a lot of research on tires, and picked the Cooper Discoverer AT/3, I got a set, and BIL got a set for his XJ too. We've both been very satisfied.

Raybestos BH38861 and BH38862 are the YJ front brake hoses you want.

I'd do all bushings, swaybar, shackles, control arms, etc. You'll need extended swaybar end links for sure. Depending on condition might just get new shackles instead of bushings.

I did spring/shackle and control arm hardware too. Shackle and spring eye bolts are M14-2.0 and about 120mm long.

Don't forget a decent steering dampener.

Plan on the rear shock bolts breaking off in the upper mounts. I used some weld nuts, as seen in my thread. There are several solutions to the problem, but have a plan of attack ready when you remove the rear shocks, you will break the bolt or twist the weld nut out of the sheet metal.

At 3" you might be okay, but be prepared to drop the transfer case mount up to an inch, or add angle shims on the rear axle spring perches, or both. You could go whole hog and do a SYE, CV, and new rear driveshaft, overkill for only a 3" lift, but chances are even at 3" you'll wind up with a some driveshaft vibration. You might get lucky, but be prepared for having to do some modifications to solve issues created by other modifications.

bigdaddylee82 wrote: Most everything I could tell you is in my Moby thread.

This is all great advice.

I ran an extra s-10 leaf, front coil spacers, zj lower control arms and a 1" square steel tube as a cross member drop.

The s-10 leaf was too stiff. Went from sagging and riding bumpstops to only riding okay with a load in the rear. I also recall the cost of junkyard leaf springs + the cost of custom made axle u bolts and spring clips/hardware being close to the cost of new springs.

The 1" drop for the crossmember worked and was cheap, couldn't use the factory "option" skid guard because I broke some bolts in the "frame"

The zj lower control arms were probably a needed item for the worn stock lca bushings alone. I also intended to replace the track bar but I stripped the recessed nut so bad I gave up and left the stock piece in place.

None of what I did was the right way, but it worked.

You need to fix the worn components in your front end regardless of how you lift your xj to get rid of the wobble.

FWIW, ZJ and XJ lower control arms are both a crap design. And other than maybe a tiny difference in length (can't remember if there is one), they're basically the same thing.

In reply to daytonaer:

I'm not quite at the point of riding bump stops in the rear, but it's about as stiff back there as a wet noodle right now. Just how stiff was it with the S10 leaves, are we talking unladen 3/4 ton truck here or block of granite?

I'm not expecting Cadillac ride quality, hoping to do this on a budget and know there will be compromises that come with that. With that being said, however, I'm starting to wonder if it isn't just worth it to go with something like the RE 3.5" kit. Gonna throw a spreadsheet together over lunch and see what the true cost difference is.

In reply to bigdaddylee82:

You're awesome, thanks for all the info! The Moby and Muffin build threads played a huge part in enabling my Jeep want in the first place.

I was thinking I'd probably do the lower control arms just because the bushings are most likely shot at this point, just wasn't sure if they would be required from a geometry perspective (castor). Probably going to skip the adjustable uppers and just replace the bushings, unless I'm convinced otherwise.

As far as end links go, I've heard at 3" lift sometimes you can get away with stock length and sometimes you can't. I can guarantee I'll break the existing ones taking them off. I was thinking maybe what I'll do is just buy some cheap stock length ones and try it that way, then if I have to go longer I can cut them and weld a section in the middle as a stopgap solution until I decide to buy some JKS quick disconnects or something. Any off the shelf solution for longer end links?

Forgot to mention the t case drop and steering dampener. I figure I can DIY the t case drop. I kind of want to do the dampener after the fact, that way I know it isn't masking any other underlying issues caused by other parts being worn. Recommendations on the dampener?

I hear the Rubicon shocks tend to be quite firm, and actually wondered if I shouldn't have sourced Sport/Sahara shocks instead. Based on your comments though, I think I'll be good with the Rubicons, as I'd tend to prefer a shock on the stiffer side.

I did the S10 bastard pack once. Wasn't bad. Now that I'm older and wiser it wouldn't be worth the work.... leaf spring tom foolery is E36M3y work. If you do it it is no where near as stiff a my 3/4 ton truck.

I did a 4" lift on my ZJ the cheap route at first (no control arms) and I'm VERY glad I have since replaced them with a set of IRO upper / lower adjustables. Couldn't get the caster even close without them.

PS I love duratrac's, got a set of 315/70 R17's on it And I would definitely buy again.

In reply to airwerks:

Good to know, thanks!

Doing the quick math over lunch, it looks like about $250 extra to go with the RE kit w/full leaves vs completing my piecemeal bastard pack kit, comparing apples-apples in terms of contents. I think I'm going to press on with the bastard pack route, should work well enough for my needs I think. I'm still young and dumb

Well, you may not necessarily need adjustable upper control arms, but they sure are handy for fixing the geometry that the lift springs inevitably ruin. Additionally, as rslifkin already pointed out, the stock control arms are crap. They are cheap crap though, if I were so inclined to keep stock stamped steel upper control arms, I'd be buying new ones before wasting time swapping bushings in my original ones.

Apparently Core4x4's stuff is orange now, but as you saw, Moby got their adjustable upper control arms. Pretty sure I got them for $100 shipped via the make an offer option. Now they're no Currie, JKS, or even RE control arms, but for $100, they're a bargain. That's roughly double the price for a pair of new stock arms, and even Rough Country's E36 M3 is $180+, but friends don't let friends buy Rough Country.

DIY extended swaybar links are easy enough, the RE kit I bought came with them, and I put JKS HD quick disconnects on Muffin, but I went through several broken stock links with just the coil spring spacer lift. I'll make the proclamation that with 3" lift springs you will need longer swaybar end links.

I will say, I <3 my Metalcloak arms. They're $$$, but double adjustable, so no unbolting to adjust them. And they look nice. Plus, the bushing / flex joint combo things work kinda like a flex joint, but without needing grease.

The Metalcloak/Currie/et al definitely look very nice, but they're certainly priced accordingly and thus much more than I'd prefer to spend. I'm looking at Rusty's and Iron Rock as the leading candidates for now, and probably leaning more towards the Iron Rocks because 1) they're slightly cheaper and 2) there seems to be a lot of anti-Rusty's sentiment in the Jeep world (whether justified or not, idk.)

I checked out the Core stuff and I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, it's no doubt going to be stronger than the stamped factory POS arm, but on the other it looks noticeably less beefy than even the Rusty's/IRO parts. The threaded potion in particular appears to be of a smaller diameter, according to the old eyeball micrometer at least, which I really don't like because stress concentration. I'm probably way overthinking this and I'm sure the Core4x4s would work fine for me, but it's my nature.

Also still debating adjustable/non-adjustable, with the difference for a full set of control arms being something like $90-100. I don't think I'll be going any higher in the future, so I couldn't justify going adjustable on that basis alone. I'm more concerned with being able to get the proper castor angle at my expected 3" of lift and whether the factory adjustment would be sufficient with a set of non-adjustable tubular control arms. The Rusty's I'm thinking would be OK, as it is my understanding they have you specify your lift height when ordering and tailor the length to suit, but it seems IRO is one size fits all for 3-6" of lift.

IIRC, the castor adjustment comes from the body side mount for the control arms being slotted, correct? Looks like a fair bit of adjustment to be had there. And, if I'm visualizing the motion of the suspension correctly, I should lose castor with an increasing amount of lift, yes? Therefore, since I would be at the low end of the IRO fixed length control arms range of lift height, I should be at the extreme high end of castor angle. So even if I can't get the castor back within factory spec, I'm thinking it's better to be on the high side than the low side.

Castor adjustment is eccentric bolts at the axle end of the LCAs from the factory. No adjustment on the uppers without adjustable arms.

Also, when lifted, you may or may not get caster in spec no matter what you have for arms. You're somewhat limited by pinion angle on the front driveshaft (going too far with it will cause driveline vibes). It sometimes becomes a matter of just getting as much as you can for caster and as long as it drives decently, it's good enough.

For Rusty's stuff, some of it is decent, some is meh. IRO is usually pretty decent. I'm personally running a Rusty's track bar up front with no complaints (and a whole variety of other brands of suspension bits).

Furious_E wrote:

edizzle89 wrote:

gearheadmb wrote: My cousin has been running 35" treadwrights on his Rubicon for a few years, lots of daily driving and some fairly hard off roading he is happy with them. They are noisy, but not bad for the size and tread pattern.

treadwright is what i was going to say as well. I have had them on 2 of my trucks so far and have never had an issue with them.

I've heard nothing but good from anyone who has actually run a set and had kinda decided a few months back when I was window shopping tires that the Guard Dog was probably the ticket for me. BUT, that's when they were listed at like $125 a pop on their website. Went and checked last week and now they show $150/each for the Guard Dog in 31 10.5 15, which is within spitting distance of the tried and true BFG A/T K02. I figure if I'm going to pay that much I'd rather just pony up the extra couple bucks for the BFG/Goodyears.

they bumped there prices up because they do free shipping now, so basically the shipping cost just got added to the tire cost

In reply to edizzle89:

Oh nice! Didn't catch that before. Also, I was mistaken in that the Guard Dog is now $140/tire, so factoring in the free shipping I think they're actually cheaper now.

Which tire(s) of theirs have you run and can you comment on wet/dry/off road/snow/ice performance and wear life? Please

If you are looking at new rims and only going 31", I'd recommend 16" rims and 235/85/16 tires. Even if you get truck E rated tires they will probably weigh less. I used jeep liberty and crown Vic steelies on mine for cheap 16" tires.

In reply to oldopelguy:

31s are about all you can clear at 3" lift without hacking the wheel wells to bits, which I don't want to do. I was planning on repainting the stock steelies and running those, both for cost and because I actually like the look. I think I should be ok in terms of clearance, as it seems 10.5" wide is about the limit of what you can clear with stock backspacing, but rubbing at full lock is a legit concern.

That said, I also LOVE the "pizza cutter" look. Don't see many XJs running skinnys around here it seems, so it would be a bit different too. I'll see if I can find any cheap wheels on CL and figure out what the cost difference would be.

235/85R16 is a skinny 32 (32x9.25). They should fit pretty well without much cutting. Pizza cutters are good for that under the full bodied rigs.

Furious_E wrote: In reply to edizzle89: Oh nice! Didn't catch that before. Also, I was mistaken in that the Guard Dog is now $140/tire, so factoring in the free shipping I think they're actually cheaper now. Which tire(s) of theirs have you run and can you comment on wet/dry/off road/snow/ice performance and wear life? Please

I had the guard dogs on my old F250 4wd. they did great on and off road, could really move some mud. They also did really well in the snow, never had to use 4wd to get around. I had around 15000 miles on them when i got rid of that truck but they had barely shown any wear and it was very even. The only complaint i had about them were they took a lot of weights to balance them.

I have the wardens on my 2wd F250 now. I havent done much offroad with it being 2wd but they did great in the snow and have handled heavy rains like it wasnt a problem. only have a few 1000 miles on them so cant speak much about wear. Since this is my first long bed truck I have to admit I have 'curbed' a handful of times and they have taken it like a champ. Unlike the guard dogs i had on my old truck the wardens didnt take much weight to balance, maybe i just had a bad batch of the guard dogs.