Am I really unemployable???

I see the job market locally and you really have a few specific choices if you want to earn more than $30K per year. Most of them involve a degree or an "IN".

If you are trying to actually earn enough money to support your family I have two words for you:

LEAVE MICHIGAN.

God knows I wish I could.

JThw8 wrote:

P71 wrote:

JThw8 wrote: If you can without a doubt say that a person with a degree is ALWAYS the better candidate for a job then I'll quit now.

You give me two absolutely identical people. Same background, same experience, same personality. Person A has a degree to back it all up and person B doesn't, then yes, Person A *IS* better and *WILL* get hired, every time. Now, no 2 people are ever identical. But the theory still stands.

But my question was not based on 2 identical people. My question was in a pool of dissimilar candidates can you ALWAYS say the degreed candidate is the better/more qualifed person for the job.

Irrelevant. There's way too many variables at play. That's like saying the car with the turbocharger out of a random lot is always going to be fastest because forced induction motors make more power per liter. The turbo car could be a 1.2L Fiat 500 making all of 85HP in a sea of 505HP Z06 Corvette's.

Just like a "degreed" person could be a 0 experience person in a room of 20+ year experts. You simply can't just ignore every other single variable, it's ridiculous.

You give me two potential employees with 8 years; Person A has a 4-year degree from a respected University AND 4 years on-the-job; Person B has just 8 years on-the-job,; and I would STILL take person A every time.

93celicaGT2 wrote:

P71 wrote:

JThw8 wrote: If you can without a doubt say that a person with a degree is ALWAYS the better candidate for a job then I'll quit now.

You give me two absolutely identical people. Same background, same experience, same personality. Person A has a degree to back it all up and person B doesn't, then yes, Person A *IS* better and *WILL* get hired, every time. Now, no 2 people are ever identical. But the theory still stands.

I don't think anyone has a problem with that. What people have a problem with is the less experienced unrelated degree-holding mouthbreather getting the job over something that's got a ton of experience in the field, and may already currently be doing that same job. It's the fact that the piece of paper seems to magically make up for shortcomings. Yeah yeah yeah, jump through the hoops, qualifications and all that. Still doesn't really make it right. But employers can and will do what they want, and that's the end of it.

I have not read a more hateful or ignorant post on GRM before in my life. If you had said that to my face you'd be a "mouthbreather" for a couple of weeks after I broke your nose. Absolutely disgusting.

alfadriver wrote:

JThw8 wrote: I will agree with point 2 and have said as much without trying to sound to arrogant about it. I could take and ace any class I wanted. But for me the desire is not there. I do not need someone else to define me or my qualifications. I have received plenty of education, I take training and education anywhere and everywhere I get it. I have qualifications and skills ranging from art to science to literature and many in between. What I don't have is a combination of those which equate to someone else's definition of what "educated" means to be able to put it on a piece of paper to say I'm smart, nor do I care what other people define me as.

I'm now more confused by your position. You choose not to finish the education, since you do not desire it, but since you do not desire an education, you feel that people should still reguard your skill sets as having it?? Jobs are defined by skill sets/qualifications required- much like how parts need to be designed and put into production. But you don't want *your* skills to be defined and used? I just don't get it. AFAIKT, you are being more stubborn that we are- insisting that you CAN get the education (easily, by your own posts), but insist that your choice should not be held against you. Odd. BTW, what's interesting, you say you get the shaft, and others have posted about affirmative action being unfair. Well two things on that- first, since you are military, you actually have affirmative action working in your favor- not in the sense of minorities, but government positions automatically give you an advantage when hiring for a job. Try a govenment agency. Second, actual affirmative action- the whole "quota" thing has been thrown out, based on a lawsuit vs the University of Michigan Law School. What affirmative action should do is attempt to find minority candidates, and then judge them on an equal playing field. If you are blaming affirmative action on you not geting a job, you should look in the mirror, and find your issues first before blaming someone else.

I never said anything pro or con for affirmative action. Yes I could get government jobs but I have a job and a damn good one with a company I like so I'm not in the hunt.

The basis of my arguments has nothing to do with my personal situation, I have never lost a job or been denied a position due to a degree. I have never claimed to have "gotten the shaft" anywhere.

I never said that skills did not need to be defined, I just questioned the validity of a degree being the definition. I have valid proveable skills and I dont need to sit in a classroom and take test to define those skills, they are clearly defined on their own.

But I see it happen to others all the time and I can recognize an unfair system when I see it even if it doesnt effect me personally. Even if/when I get my degree I will still think it is an unfair system as so many others have said.

Contrary to your arguement I do not believe that education defines your skills and abilities. I fully understand that you do not agree with that position so let's not keep beating that horse. I belive for some people it can be a good way to begin to develop skills and abilities but it is not the only way and therefore should not be the defining way.

This has gone on for 7 pages and at this point I feel we just need to agree to disagree. I have met too brilliantly skilled people in my life who do not have degrees to suddenly find myself believing that a degree is the be all and end all of proof of knowledge and skills.

P71 wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

P71 wrote:

JThw8 wrote: If you can without a doubt say that a person with a degree is ALWAYS the better candidate for a job then I'll quit now.

You give me two absolutely identical people. Same background, same experience, same personality. Person A has a degree to back it all up and person B doesn't, then yes, Person A *IS* better and *WILL* get hired, every time. Now, no 2 people are ever identical. But the theory still stands.

I don't think anyone has a problem with that. What people have a problem with is the less experienced unrelated degree-holding mouthbreather getting the job over something that's got a ton of experience in the field, and may already currently be doing that same job. It's the fact that the piece of paper seems to magically make up for shortcomings. Yeah yeah yeah, jump through the hoops, qualifications and all that. Still doesn't really make it right. But employers can and will do what they want, and that's the end of it.

I have not read a more hateful or ignorant post on GRM before in my life. If you had said that to my face you'd be a "mouthbreather" for a couple of weeks after I broke your nose. Absolutely *disgusting*.

Uhm... what? I think either my point wasn't clear, or you just didn't comprehend. Either way, something major has evidently been lost in translation. Maybe you would understand what i meant if i said it to your face?

I thought it was quite obvious that my rhetorical exaggerated scenario was just that. Apparently not?

P71 wrote: You give me two absolutely identical people. Same background, same experience, same personality. Person A has a degree to back it all up and person B doesn't, then yes, Person A *IS* better and *WILL* get hired, every time.

I don't want to beat a dead horse here but......if the two people have the same background, same experience, same personality but one has a degree and the other doesn't then they are, uh, NOT identical. Heck I picked up on that and I ONLY have a Detroit high school education. The topic up for discussion is that person A has a degree, let's say a 4 year degree and person B had 4 years of on the job experience. Person A will automatically be hired in almost every instance as if that 4 years of experience (and great references and so on) are worth nothing. The only thing a degree proves is that person A can take a test.
PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE YOU FLAME
I'm not saying a degree is only about taking tests, it's not. There is a lot of work involved for most folks.
Lemme illustrate. When I was managing an oil change place MI did emissions tests on cars. I was a tester. It was a basic test. I was dating this girl at the time and she was running the register at the "shop". I took about a month of lunch breaks and taught her the basics of the emissions testing. She went out and took the test. Passed with flying colors. She had never done a test and couldn't work the machine to actually administer a test but was certified. On the other hand I could have taken a week of lunch breaks and showed her how to run the machine and the ins and outs of making a car pass but not how to take the test. One of those scenarios produces a certified tester and the other produces someone who can actually test.

Yes I understand that the qualifications for a tester is the certification just like the qualification for nearly every job out there is a degree. My point is and always has been that the degree doesn't mean the person is more qualified than someone who spent that time actually doing the task in question.

Doc,

Read my second response to that posed question. Person A has a 4-year degree AND 4 years experience. Person B has 8 years experience. READ AGAIN. They both have a combined 8 years of experience/training, making them as identical as possible (except the degree). Person A gets hired over Person B every time.

93celicaGT2 wrote: What people have a problem with is the less experienced unrelated degree-holding mouthbreather getting the job over something that's got a ton of experience in the field, and may already currently be doing that same job. It's the fact that the piece of paper seems to magically make up for shortcomings.

Seems pretty damn black and white to me. Apparently you think anyone with a degree is less-experienced, breathes through their mouths, and are using a piece of paper to magically make up for shortcomings. Dunno how you can read that any other way.

DrBoost wrote: ... as if that 4 years of experience (and great references and so on) are worth nothing.

Not worth nothing. That person also got 4 years of paychecks, and you have to factor in some kind of education debt also.

A lot of you seem to minimize the risk many college students take- yes, a lot go on the parents $$, and a lot go to party, but MOST don't- they pay for it themselves, scrape by on minimum wage jobs, to hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel. When many of their friends are off working, making good money, and starting families. Also, not all that many of us finish in 4 years- I took 5 for my BS, and 1.5 more for an MS- so I was not earning a real living for 6.5 years- if you have a decent job at $25k (decent back in late '80's)- you've made over $150k than I did, and may even be promoted in your job. So lets not pretend that all of us college students had it easy, and that you non students were jobless, too.

Add in many of the degree programs also lead to few carreers- only a handful of them can jump right into a job that will use their new skills for a lifetime- one does happen to be engineering, which is another reason it's always brought up. Few companies pay for English Lit majors, or PoliSci majors, or most BA degrees. Phyisics requires a PhD to get a corporate job, Chemistry has it pretty good, although a lot of BS's are means to a Dr- which is ANOTHER 6-10 years of schooling and suffering.

As for the "can take tests"- if that's not what the degree prooves, then don't pretend that's the issue.

It keeps getting brought up that there are some dumb people out there who have degrees. Roughtly the same relative population that don't, too, and have years and years of experience. And add in the whole "unions are lazy" thing, too- if we just want to use labels.

P71 wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: What people have a problem with is the less experienced unrelated degree-holding mouthbreather getting the job over something that's got a ton of experience in the field, and may already currently be doing that same job. It's the fact that the piece of paper seems to magically make up for shortcomings.

Seems pretty damn black and white to me. Apparently you think anyone with a degree is less-experienced, breathes through their mouths, and are using a piece of paper to magically make up for shortcomings. Dunno how you can read that any other way.

It's an exaggerated example, not a stereotype that i'm trying to enforce. Seems you're the only person reading it that way so far. That said, how would you like me to alter it so it no longer offends you and you stop calling me ignorant and hateful? Even though yes, this is the internet, i'm not interested in making enemies. I didn't get this far in life by being hateful and ignorant (let alone on the internet lolz srs bizness), and i'm not real interested in being branded as such due to a communication issue.

I went to school. Why on earth would i even think of making that generalization?

I think the other 1/2 of the issue that's being glossed over here is the side of the house that thinks "degree discrimination" for lack of a better term is right, keeps saying that the degree shows you have skills, training and knowledge in your chosen area.
And for the examples you cite I will agree. But the earlier part of the argument was how most companies dont care what the degree is in. I think I mentioned early on that one of my best employees had his degree in marketing but was working for me as a software developer. By his own admission he was terrible at marketing.

So by the "logic" being utilized in most arguments here his degree should prove to any employer that he is capable and qualified in the marketing field (which he has admitted he is not) and furthermore somehow this marketing degree has proven him to be capable and qualified to work as a software developer (which he is but the degree has absolutely no bearing on that)

That scenario is probably my bigger complaint overall, that ANY degree even if completely outside the field, somehow makes you a more viable candidate for a position than proven skills and experience. In scenarios like this more than the "direct correlation" scenarios you can see how this act looks more and more shady and yes, discriminatory.

I'm not saying that he didn't get something from that degree, others have mentioned self discipline, etc. But self discipline can be learned in many better ways (do a 4 year stint in the military, get a paycheck and learn self discipline)

Lets not forget, there was a time when there wasn't a degree for every job, a time when many of the things we assume require a degree were done by skilled labor and noone ever thought of the need to "certify" these people at what they do. There are buildings in europe built at a time long before the existence of colleges and universities that are still standing and somehow they managed without an architect or engineer. Yes they had someone with skills equivalent to those jobs, but noone needed to give that person a piece of paper to say he had those skills.

And I'd like to take a moment to say to all the counterpoint folks here that I am in no way disparaging your hard work or denying that what you have earned is valuable. My argument is not with the educational system or the students of it but with the employers who use what could possibly be a valid criteria in skewed and inaccurate ways and yes, in some cases to veil discriminatory acts.

P71 wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: What people have a problem with is the less experienced unrelated degree-holding mouthbreather getting the job over something that's got a ton of experience in the field, and may already currently be doing that same job. It's the fact that the piece of paper seems to magically make up for shortcomings.

Seems pretty damn black and white to me. Apparently you think anyone with a degree is less-experienced, breathes through their mouths, and are using a piece of paper to magically make up for shortcomings. Dunno how you can read that any other way.

It seems he's struck a nerve with you friend but I do believe he was using a single case "mouthbreather" example not classifying all degree holders as mouthbreathers.

I sincerely hope I am not offending you with my position as well, again my complaint is with employers, I have the utmost respect for anyone who takes the time to better themselves through learning, whether it be a degreed program, a certification program or just self study. I have long lived my life by a creed first put forth by Ray Crock "When you are green you are growing, when you are ripe you rot" Always keep learning, keep improving and keep growing. But realize there are things to be learned and enjoyed outside of the formal education system as well.

I think we've come to an impasse. Time for you kids to argue about the best engine oil or something. Even I stopped caring two pages ago.

Castrol GTX FTW!

93celicaGT2 wrote: Castrol GTX FTW!

Hell no Royal Purple ;)

JThw8 wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: Castrol GTX FTW!

Hell no Royal Purple ;)

Agreed! RP FTMFW!

I understand that Mobil 1 has been University-tested?!? ;)

Eric G

I swear all of you are SUV-drifting-soccer-Moms hell bent on taxing racing.

Redline.

/thread

I've read almost all the posts in this clusterberkely of a thread and haven't seen anybody mention it yet (it may be there but, damn this thing is long). It has been widely reposted that an Associates is the new HS diploma. Anybody who hasn't shown some initiative to get some type of post-HS education will inevitably be glossed over for jobs - experienced or not. Even for jobs that were once considered less than entry level. This requirement isn't going away so we all better get used to it.

I myself don't have a degree. I'm like many others who despise school but consider themselves smart (my wife constantly says I'm the smartest person she know's. Either she don't know many people or all those years of Trivial Pursuit are paying off). I have taken some courses but those were more out of general interest than a full attempt at a degree.

But if I ever find myself in the job market again I know the first thing I will need to do is to enroll in a community college program so I can at least say I'm attending school to achieve the results that are expected of me (this will help the bs skills when interviewing).

Granted my chosen profession does put an emphasis on experience rather than a degree. When I was 21 I decided to get a CDL as it was a quick path to good money. When I was 26 I was making close to 70k a year being a garbage man as a HS dropout. Now at 35 I make a little less mainly because I chose to work for a new company 1.5 years ago and need to work up to full scale (I did fix that dropout thing though).

That being said in the 15 years I have worked at 3 places on employment. All three offered tuition reimbursement. I do wish I would have taken advantage of it but I did get lazy and complacent with the amount of money I was making.

If I had it all to do again i would still definitely get my CDL. I will always have a decent paying job and will never have to worry about being unemployed. I would have also gotten a BS in something that interested me.

For those that don't like school at least get a technical degree in something that interests you. My local tech college offers 1 year Tech Certificates in everything from welding to facilities maintenance. Those certificates will help land jobs. The credits are transferable to a full degree and you can get a student loan for them. It also opens you up to a college systems resources and job placement. Going to school to play with welder all night sounds like win to me.

Keep your chin up Boost, something will come along eventually.

JThw8 wrote:

mblommel wrote: What I think is a load of crap is the "I can't learn in a classroom" mantra or "I get bored easily because I"m too smart" or "I only learn by doing."

Which makes it obvious your degree is not in an education or psychology field. There are certainly people who do not learn in a classroom setting.

If you define "learning in a classroom setting" as sitting there listening to someone explain it and understanding it completely, very few people can do that. And I would question anyone who says they can.

Most people need other methods such as notetaking, class discussion, etc to master a subject. But it all begins with the information being presented in the classroom. If people say they cannot learn in the classroom all that means is that they are not willing to do the other things necessary to master what was presented in the classroom.

FYI: I have several degrees in the fields mentioned and 28 years experience in the education field.

P71 wrote:

JThw8 wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: Castrol GTX FTW!

Hell no Royal Purple ;)

Agreed! RP FTMFW!

I'm scared to run that Synthetic stuff in my ancient oil burning/leaking engines. Unless... do they make RP in 15w40? I gotta run heavy oil to keep pressure up in the Mazda.

93celicaGT2 wrote: I'm scared to run that Synthetic stuff in my ancient oil burning/leaking engines. Unless... do they make RP in 15w40? I gotta run heavy oil to keep pressure up in the Mazda.

Yes they do. Ran it in my Powerstroke for years.

Brian

PS- I am running 0w30 Mobil 1 in my POS Dakota as an fuel mileage experiment. So far utter failure. Zero net gain. But contrary to the thinking, it DOES have a solid 30psi cold @ idle.

The only car I've ever owned to not get the Purple was the RX-7, for obvious reasons. With the sole exception of ancient carburetored rotories, I love the stuff.

Hrmmm... interesting. Not entirely sure it's worth the money in my case, though. I change every 3k miles anyways, and at least in the Mazda, the oil isn't even dark yet at that point.

But in my case, on 5w30, the car has more like 12-15psi cold @ idle. Scary. Apparently they all did it from factory, but i still hate seeing it.

When you switch to RP, switch to at least a 5K change interval. All of our cars (except the Grand Prix) get tracked regularly (autocross, drag racing, a few HPDE's) so the 5K works well for us. Non-tracked cars that see significant highway miles can go to 10K easily.