Kazoospec's "Change my mind" thread

Oh lawdy, that one's almost too easy:

The SR is a one trick pony. Takes pictures. Abet very fast, but just pictures. One of the greatest engineered aircraft, but not the greatest. It no longer flys.  The DC-3 is still doing what it was designed to do back in 1935: haul. And not for excursions, actual paying cargo and passengers. It's been on floats, skis, sleper, military transport, fighter. This December 17 marks 83 years of doing it all.

In reply to Appleseed :

By "fast", you mean DC to LA in 1 hour, 4 minutes, right?  

I’ve ridden in a few dc3s. They’re well built for sure but man they’re rough. I dunno man. Best aircraft ever is pretty high praise for something that uncomfortable. Then again my nomination isn’t known for being cushy. Just surviving and bringing the pain no matter what gets thrown at it:

Brrt brrrrt

not so much a plane as a gun with engines and wings strapped to it. But I do like the titanium tub the pilot sits in. What a machine. 

Greatest plane? No. Greatest ground attack aircraft. But the DC-3 did that, too.

Does this DC3 look a bit strange?

Well, that’s because it isn’t a DC3, it’s a captured L2D3 “Tabby”.  A Japanese copy! (Of a DC2 actually).  They apparently where pretty impressed with it!

barefootskater said:

I'll give it a shot.

Dark chocolate is better than milk chocolate. Prove me wrong.

Consuming ^ as I type this. Winning.

While this falls under an unquantifiable “personal preference”, the high cocoa level is little more than the candy version of brewers trying to out hop each other. 

Since we're more than 24 hours out from the last comment, I'll restart with a new one.  The Battle of Stalingrad was the pivotal event of the 20th Century.  Here's the basis for my proposition.  In reality, WWII is probably the pivotal event of the 20th Century, but it's just to big in scope, scale and duration to call it an "event".  A few examples regarding the impact of WWII: It basically ended what remained of the feudal system, began the rapid decline of the British empire, while simultaneously catapulting the Soviet Union and the U.S. to the center state of world politics.  It made industrial production the centerpiece of a nation's "power".  It moved aviation from biplanes to jets in the space of a half decade.  It left mankind with the ability to extinguish himself as a species (yay us).  Etc. Etc.

As for Stalingrad being the pivotal event of WWII, here are some supporting observations:  By number of casualties, it was the costliest of the war, by a factor of several hundred thousand casualties.  By some counts military and civilian casualties may have exceeded two million, although most counts put the number slightly lower.  (Incidentally, the Germans and Russians also fought the number two (Berlin) and three (Moscow) most costly battles) Up to that point, the Germans had never lost a major battle (except possibly for Northern Africa, which was acknowledged by both sides as a military "side show").  After that point, the Germans would not win another major battle.  It cost the Germans some of it's most efficient, well trained and effective armies and leaders.  It shattered the myth of Hitler's infallibility and started growing mistrust between he and the German Army, which ultimately led to attempts on Hitler's life.  Many feel it was the first time Russia had any real/realistic hope of defeating the Germans.  It also effectively halted German expansion into the Russian oil production centers, which might have allowed German to prolong it's war effort.  It fractured the relationship with some of Germany's "lesser partners" (Italy, Romania), who likewise took astonishing casualties, and yet were blamed for the disaster for their failure to hold the flanks of the German army.  Realistically, when Germany began to decline, Japan's hopes were finished as well.  

Sooooo, now for the "Prove me wrong" challenge.  Propose a more significant event in the 20th Century and support your argument.  No pictures are needed for this one. 

The entire war? Or the European theater? Because there's a little skermish call Midway that might argue that if we are talking total war and not ETO and PTO.

I'm gonna say the entire war.  While Midway was perhaps the key event in the PTO, it basically just checked Japanese expansion while the US was "getting spooled up" in wartime production.  Japan pretty much started the war with the ships, aircraft and pilots that it was going to have to fight the entire war.  It was never going to match the US for war production.  

This photo pretty much speaks for the ability of the US to put ships at sea, so I'm going to say yeah, Midway changed the time table, but not the result.

I would propose that the single most important event of the 20th century (and arguably all of history) was the splitting of the atom.  Going from burning wood and fossil fuels to harnessing the power of the atom for both destructive and constructive purposes must be the defining event of any species on their way to the stars.

I would dismiss Midway.  Although it was certainly an extremely improbable outcome, marked the end of the Japanese offensive and likely shortened the war by a bit, the outcome of the Pacific war was always inevitable. Yamamoto famously realized that.

As for Stalingrad (I am not completely up on some of the specifics), it was not improbable (Germans issues, Russian preparations and determination) and was an event that was going to happen at some point.  Perhaps the Germans over committed (likely the result of some Hitler ravings about demanding victory), but they would have broke their back eventually.  They MIGHT have had some sort of chance against the Russians with some sort of very strategic slow retreat without the atrocities (when they still had a significant military), but clearly Hitler would have NEVER allowed that at that point.

WWII clearly had a ridiculously large effect on the next 50 years, but maybe is a bit big for an "event".  I think the argument for the invention of atomic weapons is strong. It did not really play any part in determining the outcome of the war, although almost certainly saved many lives on both sides (new argument?). The invention would have certainly happened at some point but was greatly hastened by WWII (thus piggybacking a bit on it's influence).  It did set the stage for many years of politics, huge military spending and terror.  It clearly is still on going and could still (hopefully not) have significant effect in history.

I would clarify "splitting the atom" to atomic weapons since atomic power has not had that big of an effect.  Atomic medicine has had some, but it's not all good of course.

As for the "Best Plane" argument.  I think you need to clarify "best" at bit.  Clearly the SR71 is the fastest plane with some practical function, but that function was replace by a combination of satellites and (a bit ironically) the U2 it was supposed to replace.

The A10 is clearly an excellent ground attack plane, but it also has reached the end of useful life (designed for massive tank battles in Europe and would likely not have survived long in that environment).  The C130 is clearly a better plane than the DC3 (range, payload etc) and has had a significantly long lifespan.  The DC2/3 was designed for a purpose.  It was very good at that purpose and continues to be (although in a very minor way) to be effective many, many years later.

If you judge "best" as effective it what it was designed to do over time (or maybe entire effect), I think the DC3 has a strong argument to be a winner.

If I was to amend that to a pure military aircraft, you can't beat the B-52. It will out live the B-1 and B-2. Its slated to fly until 2045. It first flew in 1952. Think about that.

In reply to Appleseed :

The B-52 is incredible. It’s put out some really great songs too. 

In reply to dculberson :

Damn straight.

It seems like we're at a sort of consensus on the plane thing, so I'll move things along:

A C5 has a better interior than a 996 911.  They are both plastic fantastic, but the c5 goes "rubbermaid softtouch" and the 996 goes "testors model hard & brittle".  The 911 chrome door handles and sills chrome also starts flaking off in sharp pieces and revealing the cheap white plastic underneath.  They look ok in photos, they feel cheap in person.  

C5:

996:

Such ze Amerikan interior.  Zo soft und pliable just like ze amerikans.  Ze Porsche is hard und cruel and zat ist how ve like it!  Ve have been bad, ve deserved to be punished... ve need a spanking!  Spank us NOW!

Wow, I gave up on this thread while we were still arguing about Miata colors.  I should have come back to it earlier.

1) Dark chocolate in the 65%-75% cacao range is vastly superior to milk chocolate for straight eating.  It tastes better, with less weird milk-chocolate aftertaste, but is still sweet enough for enjoyable consumption.  I agree that the 80%+ range is too high, and very much like the IPA hops arms race.  All that being said, I'm not really a fan of Lindt chocolate.

B) I fully support the DC-3 / C-47 as the best airplane ever built.  Nothing else has the same service lifespan coupled with the general utility, capacity, ruggedness, adaptability, repairability, modifiability, tolerance for field conditions, and flight characteristics.  There are DC-3 airframes that have been physically off the ground for more than an accumulated 10 years.

In light of recent events I'll submit what has been reaffirmed for me yet again:

Halloween is the best holiday. Creative decorations and costumes. Everything from traditional witches and ghosts to pop culture and current events. Great parties, great stuff for kids. Minimal clean-up. The weather is just right. Forget Christmas, New Years, Independence (for all us colonials), Easter, Thanksgiving... Halloween is the best.

You like Christmas? Thanksgiving? Lets hear it.

In reply to barefootskater :

Definitely Thanksgiving. Hang out with family (default or selected, or a combination), share tasty food, give a thought to what you have to be thankful for.

But mostly spend a long time over a good meal. It helps that my extended family can all cook.

Halloween is also special to me, for personal reasons; we celebrate it as our original anniversary, predating our marriage. But as far as the holiday's intrinsic awesomeness, it's Thanksgiving, hands down.

I love to cook, so prepping for Thanksgiving fits into that. I've had some fun making Halloween costumes, but they always seem to fall into... dare I say it? The same issue $20xx challenge cars have: A ton of work, one venue.

From a marketing perspective, I think Thanksgiving wins.  Not a lot being sold to you.  About the worst "sales pitch" you can get is for some sort of food, but you don't really see that.  Halloween, as it is currently implemented, is very much the result of candy companies figuring out how to make money out of it.  Although, even with Halloween, you are generally not hit over the head with it (like Christmas).

1. Most blue cars only look good when super clean.  A bit dirty, and they all look bland as hell.  Red.

2. Don't really give a E36 M3 about airplanes, but the topic is too broad.  A 747 is way better for carrying passengers to Japan. A warthog is better for killing tanks.

3. I'd rather eat dirt than dark chocolate.

4. Peeled cows are less good than cloth.

5. July 1 (or 4 in the States) is in the summer, which automatically makes it better than stuff when its cold.

barefootskater said:

In light of recent events I'll submit what has been reaffirmed for me yet again:

Halloween is the best holiday. Creative decorations and costumes. Everything from traditional witches and ghosts to pop culture and current events. Great parties, great stuff for kids. Minimal clean-up. The weather is just right. Forget Christmas, New Years, Independence (for all us colonials), Easter, Thanksgiving... Halloween is the best.

You like Christmas? Thanksgiving? Lets hear it.

The best holiday is New Years Eve.   Christmas sucks, it's stressful, annoying, too many family visits forced into a tiny slot that you spend all of your vacation time running between houses, etc.  Then you have to feel bad while cleaning up and filling the landfill with cheap Chinese plastic that grandparents forced upon you.

New Years is awesome.  The expectation is to stay home with immediate family, kids and their friends, etc. to have snacks and play games until after midnight.   Prep involves a trip to the grocery store with the preceding few days and if you're really elaborate some fireworks or something to shoot off at midnight.  No stress or prep, just fun.

aircooled said:

From a marketing perspective, I think Thanksgiving wins.  Not a lot being sold to you.  About the worst "sales pitch" you can get is for some sort of food, but you don't really see that.  Halloween, as it is currently implemented, is very much the result of candy companies figuring out how to make money out of it.  Although, even with Halloween, you are generally not hit over the head with it (like Christmas).

Disagree.  Thanksgiving is often now seen as pregaming for Black Friday, a shopping even that has killed people.