That was scary.

We were driving to my in-laws on Saturday night. It was rainy all night--the roads were quite wet, and the rain was about at a drizzle at this point.

Now, to get to her parents place from where we were coming, the best way is to get off of one interstate onto a state highway, and immediately off of the state highway onto the interstate. It works out to about a 1/5 mile right hand sweeper making nearly a 180 (driving south on one, then NW on the next), almost immediately to slow down to get around a clover-leaf (recommended speed 30MPH), then get onto the next highway by another cloverleaf.

So if you're still following, you have this:
Driving south
Big sweeper
Driving NW
Cloverleaf Right-hand turn
Driving west
Cloverleaf Right-hand turn
Driving south

Well, in the first clover-leaf, I had slowed down to somewhere between 25 and 35 MPH, and my foot was still on the brake--this is a downhill cloverleaf, as well. I'm still on the brake, not hard, just enough to be slowing me down. I start to notice that the back end is coming around. Uh oh. I take my foot off the brake, and it gets worse. I am now faced with the decision to try to accelerate out of it, (I was assuming that the spin was induced because of a combination of my coming in too hot and braking through the turn) or apply the brakes in accordance with the "in a spin, both feet in". I decide that I'm too far gone into it to save it and hit the brakes. We come calmly and safely to a stop on the shoulder facing oncoming traffic (thankfully only one car came by, and saw we were alright so kept going).

Not to blame the equipment here, but I'm checking out the shocks and tires this week. That wasn't a fun experience on the road, and my first time being in a situation where I lost control that wasn't in a parking lot. Otherwise, a good reminder to me to drive cautiously in the rain, and in FWD--not that RWD is any safer, just that I'm much more experienced in it.

Yeah. I have spun on the street twice. The first time totaled my car, the second I came to a stop on the opposite side of the road in the 1 section that wasn't a ditch.

Not anything a care to do again.

it happens... shake it off and go on with life..

I did this in morgantown WV going back to school one day. Rainy. Crappy old izusu Imark. Speed limit is 70mph (even on teh gently curved ramp). I was doing about 55. Rearend steps out.... CRAP.... I tried to catch it and "kinda" did. Now I am in a 4 wheel drift.... Going towards the guardrail....

Both feet it.... Still kissed the guardrail with the rearend of the car. Everybody is okay....

Bring me my Brown Pants!

BTDT, twice on the same ramp, on the same day.

Ahh, to be 16 again.

Oh, now that I'm thinking back, I have had one prior spin to the one I described in the OP--that was at 5AM going to play hockey before work. It was so cold out that the salt wasn't working anymore, and there was a layer of snow hardpacked into ice on the street. I came to a stop at a stop sign. It took me at least 10 seconds to get through the intersection, and then as soon as I had the slightest steering input I spun--a very, very slow, very helpless spin. I couldn't have been going more than 5 miles an hour when I spun out that time.

I don't know about your experience level, so forgive me if it seems as though I'm speaking down to you. I'll treat this as though I was discussing it with a student at a track day after they'd looped it in a sweeper on the brakes.

It's about weight transfer and how that affects grip and balance. Braking shift weight to the front wheels, throttle to the rear. For a steady-state sweeper ideally you adjust speed with brakes before turning in. Once you're done braking and are at your turn-in point, you should smoothly apply throttle to maintain neutral weight F/R. Continue to add throttle to maintain rear grip and bear in mind that if you'll need to add steering to tighten your line, you'll need more front grip.

Lifting out of the throttle in a fast sweeper can induce a spin easily. Braking in the middle of a fast sweeper is a spin. Trail braking into a sweeper and adding ever more steering input is likely to induce a spin.

This is where track days shine. Reinforcing, corner after corner the process of visually acquiring the reference points for braking, turn-in, apex and exit then systematically doing that and understanding why the car is doing what it does. Adjusting grip via weight transfer without thinking about it.

Short version - get the braking done, turn in and assume that you'll add throttle all the way through the corner.

motomoron wrote: I don't know about your experience level, so forgive me if it seems as though I'm speaking down to you. I'll treat this as though I was discussing it with a student at a track day after they'd looped it in a sweeper on the brakes. It's about weight transfer and how that affects grip and balance. Braking shift weight to the front wheels, throttle to the rear. For a steady-state sweeper ideally you adjust speed with brakes *before* turning in. Once you're done braking and are at your turn-in point, you should smoothly apply throttle to maintain neutral weight F/R. Continue to add throttle to maintain rear grip and bear in mind that if you'll need to add steering to tighten your line, you'll need more front grip. Lifting out of the throttle in a fast sweeper can induce a spin easily. Braking in the middle of a fast sweeper is a spin. Trail braking into a sweeper and adding ever more steering input is likely to induce a spin. This is where track days shine. Reinforcing, corner after corner the process of visually acquiring the reference points for braking, turn-in, apex and exit then systematically doing that and understanding why the car is doing what it does. Adjusting grip via weight transfer without thinking about it. Short version - get the braking done, turn in and assume that you'll add throttle all the way through the corner.

Experienced enough to know all of this--Over 50 autocross events. Really, my actions shouldn't have resulted in a spin*--I wasn't hard on the brakes and there wasn't any change in my braking from the start of the turn until the spin started, when I took my foot off of the brake. I wasn't going fast. There was only one steering input. There shouldn't have been any shifting of the car or unsettling of it to induce the spin at all, which is why it was scary.

Looking for equipment excuses, the tires are pretty hard--I couldn't find the build date, but they will be replaced before winter for sure.

I will say that I have very limited experience with FWD in a situation like this, so I will be entering the car into an autocross (with the wife) next year to get a lot more, or else get her an AWD car since she doesn't like RWD.

*You can't argue with physics, so obviously my actions should have resulted in a spin since they did result in a spin. I'm probably mis-remembering some of my actions into what I should have done, since I do know what to do/not to do.

I'm trying to remember but I don't think I've ever looped a car unintentionally. I've been full opposite lock sideways many times, and I've hydroplaned straight off a corner a couple times, but I don't think I've ever looped one. The scariest one for me was having no steering or brakes coming into a corner way too hot in the rain and staring at a 30' drop on the other side of the guardrail, hoping it stops you.

Nothing controlled about the condition of the road surface. A little slick of oil on a wet road can be near as slippery as ice. Glad it all worked out.

As smart as we are and as experienced as many of us are, sometimes we just do a 'whoops' and things happen. On track we are pretty focused on what we are doing. On the street, there are many distractions and sometimes we are just a little late in executing a setup for a maneuver.

Glad you were okay!

E36 M3 happens, nobody got hurt, nor did the car. It's that time of year with the cold wet roads that no tire sticks to all that well unless you've already mounted your snows.

That does sound scary, it happens to the best of us eventually. Obviously you were going into the corner a little faster than the conditions required but I'd look at all the usual suspects.

How old/worn are the tires? Biggest item when you lose traction, even if they don't look all that worn if they are old and hard you got nuthin'.

How cold was it? It's early yet in the season but just the littlest bit of ice (especially when wet) will rob you of any hope at grip.

You don't go into it but if the other cars were taking the same curve without incident at a similar speed I'd lean toward it being a mechanical problem on your end as I'm 100% confident that you are a better driver than most of the semiconscious drones piloting out nations highway and byways.

One time, my first wife borrowed my FC RX-7 which had the funky variable toe rear suspension set-up.

Unbeknownst to me, she had shot over a speedbump with it and sheared off one of its rear tie rods. The next day, I went way out in the desert with it and was doing triple digits on a slightly descending and curving stretch of freeway (Southbound on the 14 by Vasquez Rocks, CA if anybody cares).

Everything was fine until I came up on some traffic and moderately applied the brakes at which point I instantly began spinning like a top. It was so sudden, it felt like I had been T-Boned but I hadn’t, it was the rear toe system going totally berserk.

The soil was very hard packed which was good in terms of there not being anything for the car to dig into and flip over on but I covered a good 1/10 of a mile just spinning and spinning.

I’ve passed through that area many times since then and I spun at the only place that had a sufficiently long uninterrupted stretch to allow me to come to a stop without hitting anything or flying off an overpass.

Thank you undefined cosmic deity that, at times, shows mercy on foolish young men.

mtn, it sounds like you might be a RWD guy.

I'm a RWD guy. Every DD I have ever owned, was and is RWD. All my track/autocross cars are RWD. If any of them step out, muscle memory catches them before I even think about it.

Stick me in a FWD car and the first thing I do when the rear steps out is lift. Errrrr, wrong. It happened to me every time I drove the Lemons Civic. It takes me about 30 minutes of track time to remember it's FWD and driving it like a RWD doesn't work. Combine that with a little oil or just some standing water and bam, around we go.

The main reason I hate FWD is I don't drive them enough to know how to drive them.

My bet is some one dropped some oil. In off ramps this can be an issue as cars/trucks are leaning and this can cause oil that has pooled or otherwise just dripping a little to all of a sudden dump on the road. Very common thing especially at the start of a light rain / mist that is enough to get things wet but not really enough to wash anything off the roads. My Fiero could sniff out oil on off ramps in the rain like no ones business. Almost got to be comical.

When the rear on a FWD car start to come around get off the brake and on the throttle. If really works.

iceracer wrote: When the rear on a FWD car start to come around get off the brake and on the throttle. If really works.

True and that was one of the hardest things for me to unlearn/relearn when I switched to FWD for the first time when I bought the Focus. After seeing the driver/owner of the race car I crewed for taking some corners on the track I began to understand that with FWD you point the front wheels where you want to go and give it some gas. The back end is just along for the ride.

Spun on the street once. Tried to go full oppo in my 99 isuzu rodeo. Didnt go well but luckily the road was completely empty at the time. Oh and it was raining.

Wow. Speaking of scary experiences, I just had one. 2006 Toyota Sienna. It was on a big hill when the lights changed to yellow and I was past the point of no return. I give it some more gas, and nothing. I really put my foot in it, and still nothing. The light had just turned red, and I was still barely in the intersection. It was then that he transmission finally decided to kick down and unleash the 3MZ-FE. Holy, that was close.

I spun one winter morning heading to work, on a downhill ramp just like you described...only I was going fast enough to do a full 270 before hitting the shoulder, at which point I dropped it into first & nailed it, and pulled right back onto the roadway. Still felt like an idiot for getting too wide around the corner.

Toyman01 wrote: mtn, it sounds like you might be a RWD guy. I'm a RWD guy. Every DD I have ever owned, was and is RWD. All my track/autocross cars are RWD. If any of them step out, muscle memory catches them before I even think about it. Stick me in a FWD car and the first thing I do when the rear steps out is lift. Errrrr, wrong. It happened to me every time I drove the Lemons Civic. It takes me about 30 minutes of track time to remember it's FWD and driving it like a RWD doesn't work. Combine that with a little oil or just some standing water and bam, around we go. The main reason I hate FWD is I don't drive them enough to know how to drive them.

That is my problem except my experience is almost exclusively in a FWD so when I took out a friend's Turbo Miata I tried to loop it in every turn.

OP: glad your event wasn't any worse and it really is a gut punch when you lose it on the street it happens to us all eventually, but that doesn't make it any better when it happens.

Similar thing happened to me with my wifes first car (a used infinity g20t). First time on a long sweeper in the rain the tail slid waayy out halfway through the corner for no reason. I was going what I though was well within the safety margin, the front tires werent anywhere near the limit. I didnt spin it but could have just as easily as I saved it. Got the alignment checked right after that and it was way off. Like, rear toe was multiple degrees off. an alignment and new tires later an it became understeer-tastic in comparison.

Hal wrote: I began to understand that with FWD you point the front wheels where you want to go and give it some gas. The back end is just along for the ride.

Pretty much, unless the rear is actively overtaking you, you can ignore it, it just keeps the bumper off the ground. It's probably going to move around a bit (especially on a bumpy corner) and that's OK. You fix oversteer with more throttle, and understeer with more steering angle and/or throttle. You know you're coming up to the cars limits when it tries to do both at once and all 4 tires are talking.

I haven't been able to get my Fiesta loose in the rain, even with 5/32" tire tread. I've even pushed it a little to find the limit. Then I thought, OK that is good enough.