When is it time to panic

In reply to 03Panther :

Do you enter a building for work where others have recently been? Live with anyone who leaves the home or has contact with others? Go to any store? Have a lover? Get in a vehicle others recently used?

In reply to 03Panther :

Gas pump, groceries, take out food, surfaces that weren't cleaned well enough that the virus can survive on them for days, etc, etc. 

03Panther said:

Where do I get it from?  Floating on air from 30 feet away? Maybe from a surface that has been cleaned with achohal?

It does very much seem that it's very unlikley that you will get infected.  

But even with far more rigourous procedures, people are still getting infected- see Jimmy Johnson.  The least a person can do is exactly what NASCAR does, which is not quite good enough.  

Umm...

Jimmy Johnson is believed to have gotten it from his wife.  That doesn't have anything to do with NASCAR.  Appears NASCAR prevented him spreading it to other people in the industry.

I agree.  Seems unlikely 03Panther will get infected.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

So panther could get it from his spouse then?  Not sure how it's more reassuring that JJ got it from his wife.

And it's not as if JJ is the only person who is working in a "bubble" to get it.  Just because you seem unlikley to get it does not mean you should just not do anything.

If you want to risk yourself and everyone you come in contact with, it's your freedom to do that, I suppose.  Seems to be working well for many states, isn't it....

In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :

I was only responding to your statement that what NASCAR has been doing is not quite good enough.  Seems like they've done a pretty good job.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

If you want to risk yourself and everyone you come in contact with, it's your freedom to do that, I suppose.  Seems to be working well for many states, isn't it....

Who said that??  Not me, and I don't think Panther did either.

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to 03Panther :

Because 80% of people who have COVID-19 are completely asymptomatic. You thinking you don't have it and you actually not having are two very very different things.

Just a clarification.  The 80% broad estimate is for those with minor or no effect (%15 hospitalized, %5 death).  I think the current estimate is around 40% asymptomatic.  So 40% asymptomatic, 40% mild to moderate symptoms, %15 hospitalization, %5 death.  These or course are VERY general numbers, and are HEAVILY influence by risk factors. (e.g. your 80% may be entirely appropriate for those of lower risk).  Yes, I am saying you may be both right and wrong at the same time (something most media are completely incapable of understanding)

Regarding Panthers "risk": I think at this point we can only do our best to reduce possible risk given our situations, which it sounds like he is doing.  Is it possible for him to get it? I am sure it is (so many unknowns), but he is almost certainly FAR less likely then others who seem to ignore the risk.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

03Panther said:

Where do I get it from?  Floating on air from 30 feet away? Maybe from a surface that has been cleaned with achohal?

It does very much seem that it's very unlikley that you will get infected.  

It also sounds like you aren't going anywhere a mask would be required or appropriate anyway, so I'm not sure what the point of the discussion is?

In reply to ProDarwin :

My statement there was a bit too flippant, and I should’ve been more realistic... my point was , my rick level is considerably lower than the media implies the entire US is. Assuming I have it without symptoms is as bad as panicking. Could it be, yes. Unlikely. Yes. 

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to 03Panther :

Gas pump, groceries, take out food, surfaces that weren't cleaned well enough that the virus can survive on them for days, etc, etc. 

These are things I do, and a few not a ta mentioned. But I do take reasonable precautions for the things I do. But a face covering is not one of them. For example, I’m not wearing a mask and faceshield while driving in my car alone. (You didn’t suggest that, but it has been seen)

03Panther said:

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to 03Panther :

Gas pump, groceries, take out food, surfaces that weren't cleaned well enough that the virus can survive on them for days, etc, etc. 

These are things I do, and a few not a ta mentioned. But I do take reasonable precautions for the things I do. But a face covering is not one of them. For example, I’m not wearing a mask and faceshield while driving in my car alone. (You didn’t suggest that, but it has been seen)

You still don't get that the face covering is not for you, it's for everyone else. If you are one of the 80% with little to no symptoms and your saliva droplets get on one of the surfaces, like a gas pump, you could infect someone. I'm not saying to wear a mask in your home or car. I'm saying to wear it out in public to protect everyone else in the unlikely event that you do have it. It's literally the LEAST you can do for your fellow human beings.

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

Well said.

ProDarwin said:

It does very much seem that it's very unlikley that you will get infected.  

It also sounds like you aren't going anywhere a mask would be required or appropriate anyway, so I'm not sure what the point of the discussion is?

This is my problem with peoples reaction to the mask issue. I'm still being told on here that I'm a horrible person, and that I don't "get" it. Maybe its not really me that doesn't get it. 

Safety is significantly more nuanced than a debate about masks or not. 
 

It would be wonderful if we could encourage a holistic approach to safety and discussion without sounding judgemental.  Focusing on masks or no masks short cycles the conversation and education that needs to be going on.

03Panther said:

ProDarwin said:

It does very much seem that it's very unlikley that you will get infected.  

It also sounds like you aren't going anywhere a mask would be required or appropriate anyway, so I'm not sure what the point of the discussion is?

This is my problem with peoples reaction to the mask issue. I'm still being told on here that I'm a horrible person, and that I don't "get" it. Maybe its not really me that doesn't get it. 

Or maybe, just maybe, the chorus of individuals who work in the health care field, have had COVID-19 themselves, have had family members die of COVID-19, and/or work in science fields might be the correct ones. Just a possibility.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I'm not sure I understood your post. (Not being a smart-ass)

is talking about when a mask is needed part of the education, or hindering it?

I need to amend my declaration of reasonable precautions. I stated face covering is not one of them. Out of context, that's indirect. Face coverings when getting gas, or in public but not being up close and personal is not one of them. On the few occasions I'm in public, I keep my distance. If people CHOOSE to get up in my space, that's not my responsibility. 

I've been in a total of 4 circumstances that I feel I should wear a mask, and did. But mostly, it'd be silly. 

Maybe it doesn't matter who is right. 

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

I'm sorry you have lost people. And maybe suffered from covid. But I have not. So how is that relevant to my questions?

In reply to 03Panther :

For example...

I work in a dangerous industry. Hundreds and hundreds of rules and guidelines (including COVID). 
 

It's my job to encourage best possible practices to maintain a safe work site.   My job is to help people think clearly about a wide range of safety precautions. 
 

If all I did was yell at people about wearing their safety glasses, I would not be doing my job well. They would tune me out and stop thinking for themselves. 
 

So, I don't do that. I try to encourage them to see things for themselves. It's more important that they maintain an overall awareness than they follow one rigid rule. 
 

Similar thing. 

Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

You still don't get that the face covering is not for you, it's for everyone else. If you are one of the 80% with little to no symptoms...

My issue, well one issue, my biggest issue, when is it ok to resume "normal" life?

im not trying to dismiss Covid, but there are some serious issues with the argument that "we're all doing this out of compassion"

1-say by some miracle an effective and safe vaccine is developed next week. How do we define effective? More effective than the flu vaccine? I should hope so. If that is the case, we need to still assume that 40% of the population will refuse, which will leave a large number of asymptomatic folks out there spreading the virus. We will also have to assume that there will be those who cannot receive a vaccine for medical reasons and those will be forever at risk. A partially effective, and voluntarily taken, vaccine cannot be the answer then, because the need for "compassionate" mask wearing will become permanent. 

2-say next week we come up with a 100% effective way to eliminate Covid. What is the trade off? There is always a trade off. A compromise. We found a way to eliminate malaria, it was 100% effective. Yet malaria is still one of the biggest causes of death worldwide. There is reason to ban the use of ddt, but it was effective against the spread of malaria. So what we have is a socially acceptable death level of a disease that is deadly and is entirely preventable. I know this issue is a little above my education level, but all drugs and medications have side effects and risks. Some we don't know about until it is too late and the results are worse than the cause. 
 

3- masks are dehumanizing. Anonymity is opposite of humanity. It pulls us apart as a species. I am not a med student, but my understanding is that it is common practice when a med student is having difficulty with a cadaver that the instructor will put a mask on the body. It is also my understanding that this is quite effective. Again, I may be wrong, I've never been in med school. The simple argument I'm trying to make is that while trying to protect the vulnerable is a noble goal, if everyone is wearing masks forever we will stop seeing "people" and the care we have for them will diminish. 
 

So while I have no problem with folks wearing masks, and I have myself when I've been asked to or when I went to get my knee examined for example, I have to ask when will it stop? It has to stop, but when can it? Can someone paint me a scenario? Can we imagine a fix? Because barring a 100% effective, AND 100% safe, AND 100% mandatory vaccine, there will be no end to our need to practice "compassionate" mask wearing. 

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Ah, I'm in industry, so I under stand. Wish more folks thought like that

Even if I told them to wear their safety glasses, there are dozens of different types. They need to make good decisions for each specific situation, and wear the appropriate ones. 
 

Same thing. 

How is Panther going to get the COVID from Jimmy Johnson's wife?

In reply to preach :

My wife def. Wouldn't approve that